The 'knock'....the final thread!

[andyw]

Originally Posted by AJS34

Of course if I'd been clever I'd have kept the original oil and re-filled the bike with that to see if the knock went away again - bugger.

You'll have to buy yet another SV!!!


Go on........long story!?

[Deke]

MayB I'm misreading this, but R U suggesting putting old oil back in (assuming U kept it) - OK on BSA sidevalve, but a modern, 100BHP tyre shredder????

4 what its worth, I don't 'think'I have knock & have had black filters on from new.

After some hassle this week with local dealer on 4k service (more later) I tel'd Suzuki UK & got the biggest load of toss I've ever heard "all technical enquiries & advice R thru our dealers" - presumably those would be the ones who can read, write, do simple sums, etc.!!! Talk about sidestep.

With the 'take the bike 2 a dealer 2 get the front wheel removed/rear preload set (@£50/hr) - or buy tools from the big S @ lots of £ - this makes me not impressed with Suzuki (U.K.) so far.


Dealer mate of Pete59 tried my N @ Drag meet last week & declared it free of the dreaded knock. It does make some wierd noises & has the noisiest cam drive ever - whirs like washing machine with a heavy load - been like thius since mile 1.

Someone earlier wrote that the power pulses can be mistaken for the knock, and resonate thru the 'tunnel' - whatever that is. This I do get lower down, & it sounds bad, but I think it's just the combustion noise getting thru the ever thinner metal they use on Jap motors 2 get the wt. down.

Vibration has increased a fair bit tho as it's loosened up - it shakes @ tickover - like a proper bike should - as well as when the revs get up 2 the infamous 3-5k band, where it is pretty harsh 4 a modern bit of kit. Used 2 smooth out lovely above 6k, but is now starting 2 tingle a bit - anyone else get this?.

Must say I was expecting t'bike 2 be almost silent & vibe free in 2004 from Japan (particularly after such low, careful miles) & have been a bit disappointed - my 30k mile Ducati 906 was way smoother until revs hit 7.5k. Like a turbine up to 5 k.

Tha's my contribution 2 the debate 4 what its worth.

Originally Posted by AJS34

Of course if I'd been clever I'd have kept the original oil and re-filled the bike with that to see if the knock went away again - bugger.

[BLAT]

Originally Posted by David1572

Anyone been riding still with the knock? If so how many miles have you done with it? I have it and after it warms up it sounds terrible! I won't even ride it, afraid she'll blow.

Done 8500mls and mines knocked from new, i agree it sounds terrible but dont be afraid to ride it, believe me, i dont pootle about on mine and it still runs well, apart from the knocking sound below 2000 mls.

[Preload]

Originally Posted by AJS34

So I thought I'd try a little experiment. So many people have said that the knock started at the first service that there must be a link between the knock and the oil used pre and post service. So rather than wait until the first service to have the oil changed I changed it myself at 100 miles with castrol 10w 40 as recommended in the manual. Well I went for a 20 minute ride to warm the engine and sure enough it was knocking exactly as my previous SV.

We don't have a lot of solid data, so this is really useful. Doesn't it add weight to the argument that there's a lubrication issue, the crank isn't riding in a film of oil, it's hitting metal instead? Do we know for sure what oil Suzi puts in the new bikes? And no one's analyzed the oil after a change, right?

As someone just wrote, I'd be happy to dismiss it as "just a noise" if Suzuki hadn't changed to a fatter bearing for 2004, one with less tolerance than the earlier one (a Suzi mechanic in S Calif verified this when I called him yesterday--he said "there's no problem" but then he tells me about the new bearing!). Why would Suzi change the bearing if there weren't a problem? It's hard to believe the change is just a coincidence.

By the way, has any '04 owner reported a knock?

[Deke]

After 30+ yrs of home maintenance / homebuilds / re-builds, etc. had 2 get dealer for 4k service on my first 'new bike'.

My concerns re. dealer work were initially confirmed - it came back with oil that was black as the Ace of Spades - couldn't even see the 'gear form' behind the watchglass. I was not amused. Took it up with dealer after getting sample of 'new oil' from them to check it wasn't like that from fresh (Shell VSX Semi).

Dealer was immediately defensive - big surprise - why does bike trade attract paranoid schizoprhenics - or do they just get that way?. I made no accusations but said a forensic analyst friend (automotive lab) suggested that this was no way consistent with oil that had done just 20 miles - just not possible.

They offered no explanations when I asked, other than I to suggest I had no father (recorded @ Somerset house), I knew nothing about bikes / engines - (I design stuff for both) - shouldn't be allowed out on my own without adult supervision.

Just as i was preparing to engage legal speak (& worse) saying I was changing it again whatever - the 'very nice young man' behind the counter, seeing where it was going, said 'we'll change it again tomorrow & U can watch'. Ok for now. By they way Suzuki UK were worth diddly on this - no help @ all - dealers deal with everything - just not acceptable?!.

Took morning off work as I have bit between my teeth now - got the motor nice & warm (maybe they didn't before? - who f...... knows) - they drained the oil - was black as coal!!!???. Mechanic pipes up -must be oil cooler not draining properly - 'gets 'ot' on these so it does'.

Had to accompany fella round to shed @ back to observe the scared decanting of the oil - could have been chip fat for all I knew as no label on drum I could see - but looked & smelt OK. In it goes - motor run round block by desk fella - much cleaner now - even with residues left in 'new filter'. I left disgruntled, a bit humbled, but relieved that i wasn't imagining it / it did clear up.

I have a theory.

The Fuchs oil (I think) that was in it from new degraded (as it does) - black crud collected in the cooler (& maybe elsewhere) - the new stuff has high detergency & lifted this lot off, putting it into the new oil - result looks like shit as soon as the motor gets hot for 1st time after change. Not removed by filter - particles too small?.

Never had an oil cooler before, or a Suzuki, so just grasping @ straws really. Does this sound anything like a sensible explanation?.

I hope this is what happened, else my motor is a shit factory & i may never be free of it. I guess i will have to stick to the VSX now, else it will just happen again - never happened on anything else I have EVER had. However, don't want to use that dealer on account of seriously bad attitude, lack of confidence, & there's 4 of them & only 1 of me if it happens again - I could only account for 2 of em @ most!.

Would dearly like to do it myself, but the f......... warranty ties you in for 2 yrs - millstone?. Also, Suzuki GB confirm that only a registered dealer can do it & stamp book - not the owner!!!!. Bugger.

HAS ANYONE ELSE HAD THIS EFFECT?.

Originally Posted by Preload

We don't have a lot of solid data, so this is really useful. Doesn't it add weight to the argument that there's a lubrication issue, the crank isn't riding in a film of oil, it's hitting metal instead? Do we know for sure what oil Suzi puts in the new bikes? And no one's analyzed the oil after a change, right?

As someone just wrote, I'd be happy to dismiss it as "just a noise" if Suzuki hadn't changed to a fatter bearing for 2004, one with less tolerance than the earlier one (a Suzi mechanic in S Calif verified this when I called him yesterday--he said "there's no problem" but then he tells me about the new bearing!). Why would Suzi change the bearing if there weren't a problem? It's hard to believe the change is just a coincidence.

By the way, has any '04 owner reported a knock?

[Goat_3652]

2500 miles still no noise

[andyw]

Deke....so far I've had a dealer do the servicing (600, 4000 and 7500)....oil clean and clear after each with a new filter. The new oil has stayed pretty clean for a lot of miles before its started to get 'dirty'.
Sounds to me that you dealer screwed up the service somehow!

Originally Posted by preload

By the way, has any '04 owner reported a knock?

...survey doesn't ask for K3 / K4 details but looking at purchase dates I'd say no. Many bikes bought this year look like K3s from the engine numbers and of the ones I'd say are K4 (higher range engine numbers) only a couple have said yes to the 'knock'...probably misinterpretting engine noises.

My understanding is that the issue affects earlier motor only.

.....K4 owners, confirm one way or the other?

[Viking]

Originally Posted by andyw

My understanding is that the issue affects earlier motor only.

.....K4 owners, confirm one way or the other?

I stated in the survey that I have a K4 model and that I don't have the knock.
Sure I can hear some noise but nothing that worries me. It's a bit of rattling and a bit of muffled clunking that goes away when I pull my clutch handle. To me that is no reason for worrying. My GSXF had just about the same kind of noise.

Just got home from a 1000 km trip to Sundsvall in Sweden for a bike-meet and the bike behaved better than I could have hoped for. Had no problems whatsoever. (Except for a busted knee, mosquito bites and a sore bum.) The only other SV I could find at the meet was a 650.

I hope someone with "the knock" would try recording it so we could all hear what it sounds like. I for one don't know what it sounds like but I would like to hear it.

Erik

[Deke]

I was kind of hoping I had come up with a 'soft' answer, but mayB not from what U say .

If this isn't the case, then they MUST have filled it with dirty oil (it smelt f...... 2 me) - but who would do that & why????!!!!!!

I think/hope they didn't warm the motor and mayB the detergency thing 2.

Like U, up til then oil had looked very clean. Which is Y I was so bl.... surprised.

Anyway - have seen worse come out of motor & only did ~30 miles on it. Still makes U wonder what else they got up 2....bastuds......£80. All 4 a lousy stamp in the warranty book!!!.


Needless 2 say won't be going back - just wish I could do it myself - surely a f...... oil change doesn't rank harder than a complete shim job on a Desmo?!.

This is about only downside 2 buying new I guess

Will find wealthy mileage averse SV owning nun with 2 yr old 2 buy from next time :supsmiley.

Thanx 4 feedback...just off 2 kick the cat (it's next doors )

Originally Posted by andyw

Deke....so far I've had a dealer do the servicing (600, 4000 and 7500)....oil clean and clear after each with a new filter. The new oil has stayed pretty clean for a lot of miles before its started to get 'dirty'.
Sounds to me that you dealer screwed up the service somehow!


...survey doesn't ask for K3 / K4 details but looking at purchase dates I'd say no. Many bikes bought this year look like K3s from the engine numbers and of the ones I'd say are K4 (higher range engine numbers) only a couple have said yes to the 'knock'...probably misinterpretting engine noises.

My understanding is that the issue affects earlier motor only.

.....K4 owners, confirm one way or the other?

[BJAM]

Go on then, kick me where it hurts

[sv1k4animal]

Viking, you've got the clutch rattle. That's perfectly common. Glad you realize it's not the knock. (I've never heard the knock, either. But when you have it, you KNOW it, so the boys have been telling us.)

Deke, sounds to me like they simply didn't bother to change it at all. It's unfortunate that the dealers can demand work be done with them to keep the warranty. Thankfully, they can't do that here. I've done all my own oil changes. And the window's always been full of clean oil right after. I changed out suzuki's oil after 160 km. I was told dino oil was in there first (for break in), so i replaced it with dino oil again. That oil was changed out at a little over 1000km. One more time with dino oil, and it was changed out at about 3500 (the end of a 2300km/ 6 day trip). Now I run a full-synthetic. And I've never seen dirty oil in the window after an oil change.

just my .02

[Johnny_SV]

Originally Posted by sv1k4animal

Viking, you've got the clutch rattle. That's perfectly common. Glad you realize it's not the knock. (I've never heard the knock, either. But when you have it, you KNOW it, so the boys have been telling us.)

Deke, sounds to me like they simply didn't bother to change it at all. It's unfortunate that the dealers can demand work be done with them to keep the warranty. Thankfully, they can't do that here. I've done all my own oil changes. And the window's always been full of clean oil right after. I changed out suzuki's oil after 160 km. I was told dino oil was in there first (for break in), so i replaced it with dino oil again. That oil was changed out at a little over 1000km. One more time with dino oil, and it was changed out at about 3500 (the end of a 2300km/ 6 day trip). Now I run a full-synthetic. And I've never seen dirty oil in the window after an oil change.

just my .02

I have been told so many different things from different dealers, that I simply don't know what oil to use... "use regular 10w40 dino juice for first 6K", "we only use a semi-synthetic here", "its a twin, they burn hot, always use a thicker motor oil like a Harley brand", "use a full synthetic, its 99% broken-in after 100k anyway", la di da di da. In truth, I'm a bit scared about putting the wrong oil in it and getting the dreaded "knock". Call me paranoid, call me a loser, but that is how i feel. Its already over 1k and I need to change the oil, but I can't help but hold out.
One thing is for certain when I do change the oil, I'm keeping the old oil, and if I get the knock, I'm putting it back in to see if the knock goes away.

Nick, when did you first notice your clutch rattle?

[gpsv1000]

Originally Posted by ghillie

gpsv1000,

My first guess is, it isn't the clutch basket as the knocking is obviously on the left side of the bike. With that said, until I really listen with a stethoscope, sounds can migrate from the point of origin to be heard elsewhere. But my first impression, the knocking is on the opposite side of the clutch.

John

Basket clutch has been changed. The knock is still there only much quieter.


Giuseppe

[BLAT]

Done 8500 mls on my bike and i,ve complained about the knock on my bike since new, mechanic at shop where i bought the bike has always said thet this is just a normal characteristic of v twins and nothing to worry about. I,ve never been entirely convinced with this theory as everbody who owned a v twin would therfore be complaining about a knocking sound.
Today i decided to to take the bike to another local suzuki dealer to ask their opinion. Three mechanics came out to listen to it , they said that there is nothing at all wrong with it, the knocking sound is caused by the decompresser on the bike. They explained that the old TL engine did not have a decompressor fitted and was therfore a lot quieter engine. Does this make sense to any of you engine experts out there?.

Anyway they said that my engine was sound and that i would be able to thrash it for years and no harm would come to it, so that is what i plan to do.

[sv1k4animal]

Originally Posted by Johnny_SV

I have been told so many different things from different dealers, that I simply don't know what oil to use... "use regular 10w40 dino juice for first 6K", "we only use a semi-synthetic here", "its a twin, they burn hot, always use a thicker motor oil like a Harley brand", "use a full synthetic, its 99% broken-in after 100k anyway", la di da di da. In truth, I'm a bit scared about putting the wrong oil in it and getting the dreaded "knock". Call me paranoid, call me a loser, but that is how i feel. Its already over 1k and I need to change the oil, but I can't help but hold out.
One thing is for certain when I do change the oil, I'm keeping the old oil, and if I get the knock, I'm putting it back in to see if the knock goes away.

Nick, when did you first notice your clutch rattle?

Johnny, concerning which oil to use, I took some advice from the same article I took advice from on my break in procedure...
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm .

Many of us on the site have read this. Some agree, and some disagree wholeheartedly. Either way, no can say it's not an interesting read...

Generally, I really like to use synthetics "when it matters" ie. when I really want to take good care of something, because it warms up much faster. Most of your engine wear occurs on startup. We all know this. So I want an oil that is going to get to my engine parts sooner. There are several advantages to synthetic oil (supposedly), which is great, but this is probably one of the main ones for me. That said, I use a cheap semi-synth on my sh!tbox car 'cause I don't really care about it, I just don't want it to die, cause then I'll have to spend money on it instead of the bike...

And I first noticed the clutch rattle at about 1300km I think... It was definitely after my second oil change, but not immediately after.