The 'knock'....the final thread!

[nigel]

just to set the record straight i change my oil and filter every 1500 MILES so no shit in filter havent done 6000 without change. The problem lies in the way the filter works with the relief valve old oil filter no knock , new oil filter i have the knock

now it really doesnt take rocket science to figure out that in my case the knock is caused by the oil filter
what takes a bit more figuring out is how??? if the filter was blocked you would have lower oil pressure and hence a knock
Over to you#

[nigel]

sorry to dissillusion you dan but i think you are being spun a line there are no shims on the crank , just bearings

still it will be interesting to find out what they do
For everyones knowledge a few years ago just 27 years ago i had a young sprog working with me at a shop called sondels in north london he had won the british scooter championship 2 years on the trot had a spill or two and lost some front teeth his name ????? Nick Barnes !!! who is the MD of suzuki gb today??? one and the same , i think the time has come to give him a call and get the low down
dont you???

[dan uk]

I know what you mean there. I look at chaps running their own successfull firms now that i trained up !! Back then most of them i'd have put down as only good for chatting to customers and fetching tools from the van !!

I wasn't really paying that much attention to what he was saying tbh but he definately mentioned shimming i'm sure he did. I'll get the full low down on the 18th unless someone gets it before then.

He wouldn't bullshit me though - he wasnt talking to a moaning customer unhappy about the situation but rather someone who couldn't give a shit regardless...

[TLRMan]

Originally Posted by nigel

sorry to dissillusion you dan but i think you are being spun a line there are no shims on the crank , just bearings

still it will be interesting to find out what they do

Well some may call the "Thrust bearings" shims, because this is what they use to get the end play of the crank in tolerance...They do look like shims, and act like shims...

I have said it all along, it has to do with oil pressure, and the thickness of the oil at temp. My TLR will only knock when temps go above 210-215 degrees...It normally runs around 185 - 187. So if bypass spring is different in factory installed filter versus the one that replaces it, could be a telltale sign of whats going on.

[Stevezuki]

If it is the filter that induces the knock, wouldn't they all get it after the first service?

Steve

[TLRMan]

Originally Posted by Stevezuki

If it is the filter that induces the knock, wouldn't they all get it after the first service?

Steve

Not all filters are made by the same company, but have the same name glued onto them....I think it is a bearing clearance issue, if the revs go higher, oil pressure increases, and knock is gone....Why don't we just overdrive the oil pump some more, with different drive gears...Worked with the dragbikes...

[CLJ]

Originally Posted by nigel

sorry to dissillusion you dan but i think you are being spun a line there are no shims on the crank , just bearings

still it will be interesting to find out what they do
For everyones knowledge a few years ago just 27 years ago i had a young sprog working with me at a shop called sondels in north london he had won the british scooter championship 2 years on the trot had a spill or two and lost some front teeth his name ????? Nick Barnes !!! who is the MD of suzuki gb today??? one and the same , i think the time has come to give him a call and get the low down
dont you???

This is somewhat incorrect...there is 1 shim, a thrust washer on between the case and primary/scissor gear assy. It helps contain the cranks runout and primary to clutch ring gear mesh.

[dan uk]

either way chaps... we'll see what happens to the bike.

i don't care either way tbh.. it'll be dyno'd right before AND right after to see if any tightening makes any difference.

[CLJ]

Originally Posted by TLRMan

Well some may call the "Thrust bearings" shims, because this is what they use to get the end play of the crank in tolerance...They do look like shims, and act like shims...

I have said it all along, it has to do with oil pressure, and the thickness of the oil at temp. My TLR will only knock when temps go above 210-215 degrees...It normally runs around 185 - 187. So if bypass spring is different in factory installed filter versus the one that replaces it, could be a telltale sign of whats going on.

I agree there is too low of oil pressure to stabilize the crank at lower rpms and probably related to the springs resistance. The main bearing clearance simply causes a marginal situation to be noticed.
If anything is done to create higher oil pressure such as thicker oil, cooler temps, tighter main clearance etc, the noise is reduced or eliminated.
I personally suspected the oil filter initially, thinking it was inhibiting flow somewhat from a bad batch and changed my filter the following day after performing my 3500mile oil / filter change. Of course this was also a new one.
I also tried the thicker oil. suzuki 20-50. It did help some but when temps were high it was still noticeable.
I think the oil pressure spring would fix this. I have done this in several motors to increase the oil pressure over the years, simply stretch the spring out a little and reinsert. A scientific approach would be to see what the oil pressure of a "knocking bike" is at idle and a non knocking bike. Then simply strech the spring a bit, and try to exceed or match the non-knocking bikes psi. Keep strecting it until you are at the top of suzuki's spec(if they have a maximum idle oil pressure spec) or a hair above whatever is established as a non knocking spec.

[andyw]

Letters to/from Suzuki.........see previous page

After writing to various bike mags again I have an email from Simon Brown, Deputy Editor at Ride Magazine advising me that he will be contacting Suzuki on the subject prior to doing his long term test write-up on the SV!

doolsporter - I'd be surprised if you have the knock at 200 miles....I don't think I've heard anyone say thay've seen it prior to the first oil change (600 mile service). Or have you done an early oil change? (completed the survey?)

Just a reminder to everyone - there is a description on the knock pages at www.sv1000.inuk.com of how to 'diagnose' the knock.

Many thanks to everyone for your input and contributions - speaking of which I don't think I've mentioned that Preload has written an excellent letter to Suzuki as well...copied out to Suzuki Uk, USA and Japan! big Rep to you.

[andyw]

Thanks Dan (and Nigel / TLRman / CLJ), keep us posted.

There's been talk of replacement shims in addition to the main bearings before......thanks TLRman for clarifying that.

We may have another ally......after writing to various bike mags again I have an email from Simon Brown, Deputy Editor at Ride Magazine advising me that he will be contacting Suzuki on the subject prior to doing his long term test write-up on the SV!

[BJAM]

Well done Andy - sounds like your doing a great job.

What we really need to know is what long-term damage will happen to the bike if it continues to knock at low revs without any remedial damage?

Also, if the oil pressure is increased what long term effect will this have on the engine components designed to be run at a lower spec.

How about once the engine has been shimmed / bearings replaced a higher oil pressure filter is added. Will this then push the oil pressure beyond the tolerances designed by Suzuki?

The oil pressure is a definate factor here but I was also informed by a Suzuki Technician that they beefed up the engines clutch assembly as part of the redesign of the TL engine. The added weight is overloading the crank in some cases and is the primary cause of the knock in the first place. If your clutch is slightly out of balance this could also cause a minor knock at lower revolutions/frequencies and not at higher.

Has anyone checked out the other bikes this engine is fitted to light the Cagiva models etc. Are their engines knocking?

[andyw]

Thanks Brian........and for the points you mention.

Other bikes with the same engine.........the V Stormers have a very active site and there are bikes with 'the knock' (they refer to it as 'idle hammer'....maybe a better description?!). I got in touch with one of their 'mods' and a post was put up for me linking to the survey.....only ever had a few responses...#shrug#

[nigel]

yes the clutch is about 1" larger than on the tl but as id doent run on the crank it would not affect the crank if it was out of balance,

it is certainly a bearing issue as i have seen bikes that had their bearings replaced and i examined the bearings in question they were not marked at all just had too much clearance from the crank journal

[doolsporter]

OK Andy. You are right. The knock actually began at about 210 miles. I did the first oil change at 360 miles. Maybe you just rode it like a nancy boy for the 1st 600 miles. In any case, just ride it and stop worrying!