The 'knock'....the final thread!

[Ben77]

Mmmm that's very interesting as I think most peoples knock originated after there first service when their oil filter would have been at it's most dirty and the original "running in oil" is much thicker too. Sounds like Nigel may well have hit the nail on the head. This actually makes more sense to me as I went to Crescent Suzuki the other day to get a mechanic to listen to my bike and give his opinion on the knocking noise emanating from the left hand side.

Well to my amazment he said that's not the knock, the noise it's making is perfectly normal. No it's not I said, can't you hear it? He then went on to tell me that a few bikes had had a defective main bearing that was acting like a scraper and was subsequently scraping oil away at the top of the stroke and so a horrible metallic scrapping noise followed that was apparently truly horrendous and isn't the "idle hammer" (I like that term, very discriptive) that I have.

Anyway he said the reason for the knocking on mine (which I know is very similar to many others) was due to the fact that they, when doing the 1st service, had originally serviced SV's by putting in the same oil as they had used on the TLS TLR which you may not think is a bad thing but the problem is that the SV runs significantly hotter than either of these bikes and so the oil became too thin at optimum running temperature in the SV. Therefore he said the Suzuki bods had been round and said that they should be using a thicker oil, and from about June they've been using thicker oil. He then went on to recommended that I use MOTUL 5100 10W40 as it will get rid of the sound and feel of the knock. He also told me not to worry as it won't damge the engine using the oil I've got in it at the moment but he said when I next have a service I should specify the Motul oil and problem solved. I haven't got round to doing it yet but if anyone tries it before me let me know what happens. I'm not gonna do the filter as I want to see what the oil does on it's own. Interestingly there doesn't seem to be many if any reports of 04 models doing this and apparently there have been no engine changes since production began so is it that they're using different oil and/or filters now?

Now in relation to Nigels point am I right in thinking that thicker oil will increase oil pressure? I apologise if this is a stupid question but I am stupid or I'd know already.

[andyw]

Ben......as you say interesting and very plausible (what the guy at Crescents said).....but there have been different explanations along the way and personally I'm waiting for Suzuki to make a statement and until then I don't really know what to beleive. Thanks for passing that on though.

Oil pressure.........see my post just above yours!

'Nard....keep taking the tablets! and stay away from the keyboard meantime

[MazPillion]

hi andy i will write ro the md at suzuki and let you know what he says

[Johnny_SV]

Can somebody with a good digital camera please post a photo of the factory (stock) oil filter? I want to make sure that I purchased the right one. A few angles would be great.

Thank you!!!

[BJAM]

Could the oil really make this much difference? Some of the knockers I have heard have been horrendous. I'm not so sure that changing the oil would make the world of difference.

Why the different bearings from Suzuki? So they can run a normal thickness oil - I don't think so. Hurry up Suzuki - we need some answers that clear up the facts.

Perhaps we should all assemble at the NEC Bike Show on the Suzuki stand and demand a straight answer - no half truths.

[v2power]

all i can say is that i can confirn that my bike with motul oil 15-50( not 10-40) i have been using does not knock, and with the dealers oil it does knock, but i have to say that they changed the oil filter as well

[Preload]

Here's the latest on what I've been up to.

I stirred things up by writing Suzuki Japan, UK and US about my engine. In the end, the Customer Servicer Mgr for Suzuki US called me. Marvin Roloff is his name; he's at the Suzuki US number, 714-572-1490.

Roloff said Suzuki UK and US don't share service info so he doesn't know anything about the UK warranty repairs!

He said there have been very few US complaints, a big V2 can make big noises, a noisy engine may still be within spec, the fact that only some of us complain about the knock may only mean that we're on the noisy end of the spectrum, and so on.

I told him about Andy's knock site and asked him to look at it. He said he might look at it but, as most mechanics do, he said Suzuki doesn't give much credence to what they read on the Web, that there's a lot of misinformation and half-truths, and a lot of people just refuse to accept that they're wrong. I said Suzuki could clear up the misinformation with a solid report on the knocking and that Suzuki itself doesn't like to admit when it's wrong, either.

Anyway, the upshot is that a Suzuki tech will be in the SF Bay Area in about 6 weeks and will inspect my engine. So now I've got a dilemna. I switched to synthetic oil and the knock is reduced about 50%. So I may have fixed the knock enough to give Suzuki an out but not enough to be confident about the engine. I guess I shouldn't have done that. I'm gonna look like a nut explaining it.

Well, at least I'll be able to tell the poor sap I sell the bike to that Suzuki swears the bike's okay. And if Suzuki finally figures out what's wrong and does a recall, the bike will be on the short list of knockers.

PS
I've been in correspondence with several riders in Ireland and England whose bearings were replaced under warranty, so Suzuki UK evidently recognizes the problem and is remedying it. However, some dealers are better to deal with than others, so you may have to shop around.

[David1572]

I'm at the point now that I don't care anymore. I almost don't hear the knock anymore cause I'm used to it. Still runs like hell, none have blown up. I think it would be nice though if Suzuki would just explain the noise. After all if one makes the noise and the other does'nt, then it's a fact that something is not right in one of them. To all who have gone to extremes to contact Suzuki reps Thank you and keep us posted!

[andyw]

Originally Posted by MazPillion

hi andy i will write ro the md at suzuki and let you know what he says

.........I'm still waiting for the reply to my last letter
The Knock...the final thread: Sept04 - letter from Suzuki
after the crap response to my first but the more of us that are seen to take the issue seriously the more likely Suzuki will come clean!

Perhaps we should all assemble at the NEC Bike Show on the Suzuki stand and demand a straight answer - no half truths.

....like it :supsmiley ....with banners and plackards....we should start working on a catchy chant too!

I feel more and more that we'll only get the answer from Suzuki, so the more action we take and the more noise we make, the better.......
We have the data from the survey....
We have statements from owners who've had warranty work done.....
We have owners pestering Dealers......
We have people writing direct to Suzuki.....
We have Ride magazine approaching Suzuki soon....

If I don't get a decent answer to my last letter I will write and ask Suzuki how they feel about us handing out questionnaires and info leaflets on the subject at the NEC (thanks for the inspiration Brian)

Oil viscosity / different oil filters...........I'm sure engines can be quietened but as Brian said, it's hard to beleive that 'full on' knockers will benefit. And there's a potential pitfall......all oil ways, bearing and metal/metal interface tollerences will have been designed with a specific oil density in mind....so in the short term you make your engine quieter but at what long term cost?!
As I said above, we need answers from Suzuki.........what is the cause, what is/are the fix(es), what will be the outcome of ignoring it long term and confirmation that Dealers will not knock us (pun intended) when px'ing a 'knocker' for your next bike.

[andyw]

Cheers Preload

......said Suzuki UK and US don't share service info so he doesn't know anything about the UK warranty repairs!

...no surprise but Suzuki HO (Japan) must collate info from all worldwide HOs...why should a Suzuki customer get different information and be treated differently according to what country they live in?!...what a load of crap

I told him about Andy's knock site and asked him to look at it. He said he might look at it but, as most mechanics do, he said Suzuki doesn't give much credence to what they read on the Web, that there's a lot of misinformation and half-truths, and a lot of people just refuse to accept that they're wrong. I said Suzuki could clear up the misinformation with a solid report on the knocking and that Suzuki itself doesn't like to admit when it's wrong, either.

...exactly, just be honest with us Suzuki!



Synthetic oil........Mike, if I were you I'd stand the expense of an un-needed oil change and revert to original spec oil supplied by your Dealer before Suzuki examine your bike.

See also: the knock a new development

I think it would be nice though if Suzuki would just explain the noise. After all if one makes the noise and the other does'nt, then it's a fact that something is not right in one of them

.....one easy answer to all this....Suzuki, break the mold and be honest and upfront with your customers!!! - Letters to/from Suzuki....see previous page

[Greggy]

hi all

i just read nigel's explanation on oil.......... sv1000 uses 10w 40 as standard anyway. changing to a different manufacturers oil will not affect visocity, it will just put a bigger hole in our pockets.

does anyone own a suzuki manual for the sv1000 and can check what the clearances for the main bearings are? if suzuki are changing the bearings, which they say are doing to affected bikes, (ok, so i had to push the issue, but they were abliging when i did tell them i wanted the bearings changed) then surely the problem lies with the bearings. i can't believe that the company which designed and built our engines do not know what they are doing. storoes of stretching springs in oil filters........ o my god. do you think suzuki would allow dealers to strip engine, refit etc etc at a cost of up to £1000 per bike if all they needed to do was a stretch a bloody spring in the filter! lads, get your head out of the clouds. this is an example of what the usa suzuki guy said when he said he didn't read web stuff cos it's mis leading. next you're going to say there are fairies practicing their drums next........... not to mention a previous thread which mentioned that suzuki clutch oil was made from fish oil! get a grip!
let's be scientific, those of us with bearing replacements have not heard the knock since the work was done. those of us who still have the knock, was their knock diagnosed by the suzuki technical guy? i honestly think we setting ourselves up for a big big fall. the v strom has had the knock always!!! any break downs? no. perhaps the odd owner put fish oil in by mistake, but nothing attributed to the knock. i don't think suzuki are being 'fishy' about this. they have made replacement bearings, they are fitting them foc(!) and if they didn't, the engine would probably only run for the odd 200,000 miles. suzuki always over engineer engines. look at the r1, r6, ninjas, triumphs, engines and clutches blow like prostitutes. ok, so the frame and paint fall apart first on suzuki's ,but their engines last and last.

the problem are the bearings. if you are unhappy, now is the time to get them replaced. you know what you want, you want new bearings, haggle, stamp up and down at your dealer, shop around (i did) but just get it done.

[BJAM]

Greggy - you speak some common sense in a very passionate manner

[Bish]

Originally Posted by Greggy

does anyone own a suzuki manual for the sv1000 and can check what the clearances for the main bearings are?

Section 3-73 of the service manual says:

[svvmax]

3,500 miles and no knock - but I'm becoming paranoid about it after all the talk and I'm gonna be listening closely after the next 4,000 service.

Read many posts on this - is there an agreed conclusion as to why it seems to happen after an oil and filter change?

[CLJ]

Originally Posted by Greggy

hi all

i just read nigel's explanation on oil.......... sv1000 uses 10w 40 as standard anyway. changing to a different manufacturers oil will not affect visocity, it will just put a bigger hole in our pockets.

does anyone own a suzuki manual for the sv1000 and can check what the clearances for the main bearings are? if suzuki are changing the bearings, which they say are doing to affected bikes, (ok, so i had to push the issue, but they were abliging when i did tell them i wanted the bearings changed) then surely the problem lies with the bearings. i can't believe that the company which designed and built our engines do not know what they are doing. storoes of stretching springs in oil filters........ o my god. do you think suzuki would allow dealers to strip engine, refit etc etc at a cost of up to £1000 per bike if all they needed to do was a stretch a bloody spring in the filter! lads, get your head out of the clouds. this is an example of what the usa suzuki guy said when he said he didn't read web stuff cos it's mis leading. next you're going to say there are fairies practicing their drums next........... not to mention a previous thread which mentioned that suzuki clutch oil was made from fish oil! get a grip!
let's be scientific, those of us with bearing replacements have not heard the knock since the work was done. those of us who still have the knock, was their knock diagnosed by the suzuki technical guy? i honestly think we setting ourselves up for a big big fall. the v strom has had the knock always!!! any break downs? no. perhaps the odd owner put fish oil in by mistake, but nothing attributed to the knock. i don't think suzuki are being 'fishy' about this. they have made replacement bearings, they are fitting them foc(!) and if they didn't, the engine would probably only run for the odd 200,000 miles. suzuki always over engineer engines. look at the r1, r6, ninjas, triumphs, engines and clutches blow like prostitutes. ok, so the frame and paint fall apart first on suzuki's ,but their engines last and last.

the problem are the bearings. if you are unhappy, now is the time to get them replaced. you know what you want, you want new bearings, haggle, stamp up and down at your dealer, shop around (i did) but just get it done.

Unfortunately,there is more to the issue than simply bearing replacement. From all I have gathered, and i have been pretty involved in this thing from the beginning, the issue seems to be related to a marginally sufficient oil pressure issue. I can testify(as I had my main bearings replaced) that replacing the bearings does indeed correct the issue, however there are some reports of the knock coming back in 1 case and another instance of it never going away. I know of about a total of 7 people who have had the mains replaced, 5 of which were corrected. 2 in which it wasn't. Of these 2 it is possible that the "modified/updated" bearing was not used or iit was assembled within spec but on the loose side.
My bike was dead in the middle of spec and still knocked with original bearings.When new bearing was installed, the clearance was reduced from .0015 to .008(below spec). This was enough to create added oil pressure and thus keep the crank journal from contacting the bearing at lower rpms(provided an adequate volume of oil to ensure a film was maintained between crank and bearing). The idea of increasing the oil pressure thru streching the relief spring only surfaced because it was suspected to be a lack of oil pressure. The common thing here is that the issue is first noticed after changing the oil. So the oil filter, as well as the oil itself, the oil level and type/brand of oil have all been questioned, and without someone such as myself and others who have dedicated time and effort to finding an answer in regards to the cause of the issue as well as spend considerable time "sharing" what we have done with everyone here so far you wouldn't have enough information to contemplate what the issue is or is not. I believe the person mentioning the oil pressure relief spring was TLR Man and he is a credited engineer, with a racing background with TL's, I believe I have some credentials in the fact I also have been involved in racing all my life as well, have a state issued certificate saying I am qualified as motorcycle & small engine mechanic as well as placed 3rd in a statewide trouble shooting contest...on you guessed it motorcycles.
Now certainly all the other mechanics who have dealt with this issue have also been baffled, by the issue starting after a regular service as well as us.
The possibility that the oil filter has changed in some way or fashion is just as likely as the main bearings suddenly changing clearance 1 moment after an oil change. My point here, is that by reducing the clearance you can "compensate" for the lack of oil pressure, by creating more, and we all know that even though it generates noise, I have known of no engines in my life that came apart directly related to a marginal main bearing issue. However many an engine has come apart due to lack of oil pressure being delivered elsewhere because of bleed off from a loose main, such as rod bearings, camshafts etc. Remember if you are lacking oil pressure in one place(depending on the design of the oil delivery system) you will also be running with less than optimal elsewhere. So maybe there is no inevitable failure coming, however I can say with certainty that the rest of the motor(or some of its components) will wear sooner, than if the oil pressure were higher.

In my opinion, I believe the issue is a design issue in which the oil pressure is adequate at most RPMs but in a marginal situation such as a combination of factors like the main bearing clearance is toward the top of suzuki spec, the bike is hot, a possible weak spring in the oil filter, and the oil is thin or any combination of these are enough to make the issue "noticeable" at low rpms/ idle.

This is my 2 cents, and I totally agree with those such as TLR Man as well as others who have spent time trying to think of possibilities etc.
For those who continue to doubt the validity of the issue, the importance of the issue, or any of the potential possibilities others have offered, I offer only one piece of advice; The issue NEEDS to be officially addressed by Suzuki, as well as resolved, the knock issue is although impacting only a few, widely known and has in fact affected sales as well as resale value. So for anyone here on this board that owns an SV (excluding me, as I no longer own a suzuki product, yet still hang out here because I like everyone here) it is important that we all contribute what we can to get this issue put to bed as soon as possible.

OK I am off my soap box now.