Running issues - SV1000 Portal
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 25th March 2016, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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Running issues

Hi guys, I'm hoping you can help me here because I'm out of ideas.

I got my K3 out of the garage last week and did the usual prep to get it going. It always has problems starting when it's been laid up over the winter, but new plugs and a fresh tank usually cure the problem. This year though, it's just not doing it.

Over the course of a few days, I've been tinkering with this and that, but it just wouldn't even idle properly, and there were large amounts of exhaust smoke coming from the rear cylinder particularly.

It's now at the point where it will idle fine and no more excessive smoke, but when the throttle is opened it starts to complain and will die - unless the throttle is held slightly open to allow it back to idle speed - then it idles again just fine. There have also been some worrying noises from the engine when raising the rpm to between 3-4k, and quite a few backfires.

I've checked everything I can think of and I'm now out of ideas. Things I've tried so far:

TPS adjustment; throttle body sync; checked vacuum hoses - doesn't appear to be a leak anywhere; clean air filter; replaced plugs; fuel pump appears to be working and not clogged, but I've not checked the filter.

I'm wondering if the TRE might be causing a problem, but it shouldn't affect neutral as it's the in-line type TRE with no modifications to the blue or black wires. Air filter is K&N and I have Fuel slip ons. Nothing has changed though since last year when it was running just fine before being stored. No error codes from the ECU are being reported (C00).

Any thoughts welcomed and appreciated.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 26th March 2016, 12:43 AM
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Welcome to the Forum!

First thing I'd check is the fuel volume to make damn sure you're getting enough. All the sensors and bits of running gear on the bike shouldn't care if it sits for a day or a year. The fuel system is the one thing that can be sensitive to sitting. Any gunk in the tank....you do store it totally full, yes? It's always best I believe to store it full to keep the air away from the tank surfaces as they'll rust.

Can you see any rust in the filler hole? If you can even see just a tiny spot...I'd pull the pump and inspect, after doing the volume test. If it'll pump 5 oz in three 'key on' cycles it's good enough, but most healthy pump/filter units will do a bit more. Some reading for you: http://www.sv-portal.com/forums/4-sv...p-problem.html

Mine clogged up from rust in the tank. It didn't look serious at all...just a few stains inside the filler neck, but man I was shocked when I finally got the pump out and was able to see the top of the tank!! That rust had dropped down and clogged the inlet screen...what Suzuki calls the 'low pressure filter' and despite a new one AND a new pump...it wasn't making good pressure. Only thing left was the 'high pressure filter' and that was clogged up. To prevent issues in the future and make it easier to diagnose I put on a permanent fuel pressure gauge so I can watch it. The bike will run surprisingly well with only 15 psi! But it won't run right and the backfiring you mentioned is one giveaway that it's leaning out.

The link above also mentions the DL bypass mod which is a good one if you don't feel like spending $250 for a new factory filter. Don't worry..and don't mess with any of the tune-up stuff just as yet!! You don't want to make it worse..before finding out if the fuel volume is good. Best of luck!
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 26th March 2016, 08:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Rob

Checking the fuel pump/filter would be next on my list, but I didn't want to start stripping it until I was at least sure it would be beneficial due to requiring new seals on assembly. I didn't store it full - did that one year and had a full tank to drain and store come spring, decided it was better to store (almost) empty. I can't see any rust at all around the filler, it looks spotless around the neck other than a bit of grime around the edge. I did test the pump in a simple way by turning the ignition with the hose going in to a fuel can. It did seems to be pumping a fair amount, but I have no idea exactly how much.

I'll take a look through the thread you posted and bite the bullet on checking the tank/pump itself.

Cheers
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 26th March 2016, 04:42 PM
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If it passes the 'fuel volume' test, it's very likely not fuel related. I'd dig elsewhere if that check is OK and reserve digging into the tank for later if all else fails.

The next most likely cause that we've seen is a breaking down sparkplug wire connection. The caps can be a bitch to get off as they snap tightly into the head and some amount of force is required to get them to come out. This can stretch the cable connection inside and cause a misfire. Easy solution is to remove the cap...it just screws off then trim 5-6mm from the end and reattach. This will give the threaded barb a good bit of wire to dig into and make a resistance free connection and might help it run better. The caps have 5-6Kohm resistance by themselves, and if you add a shaky connection...plus the spark plug resistance it makes it tough for the coil to get a reliable spark across the gap.

I always like trying the simple and inexpensive things first. Most of the SV will sit patiently for many months waiting for its' chance to hit the road again with little complaint, so hopefully what's affecting yours is just something simple.

One question: Have you ridden it, or just playing with idle and sitting stationary? I've found the fueling to be pretty rich on most SV's and it could be fouled which will play hell with it idling well. Maybe an 'Italian Tuneup' (take it out and run the crap out of it) would help? Mine doesn't seem to like cold starting and warmup very much and if I shut it down before riding it'll be a bit balky the next time started. I'm giving this to the plugs being fouled a bit and it always (knocks on wood) cleaned up and run fine after a brief blast. We're running CR9EIX plugs which are a bit colder than stock. What kind and heat range are you running?

Edit: also wanted to ask if you have an O2 sensor? That might make a difference in how you proceed on your diagnosis.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 27th March 2016, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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I have ridden it, but never got very far. As soon as the revs rise it starts complaining, then wants to take off when it hits 4k, only to bog down again. Same symptoms when it's sat in neutral.

I'll do the volume test today and check the plug caps. One thing I found with the SV it's difficult to check the spark with the plugs out trying to find a suitable ground.

O2 sensor is still connected.
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 27th March 2016, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
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Volume test seems fine - over 300ml in 3 on/off blasts

I took the plugs out (again, 14th time) and they were covered in soot. Cleaned them up (they are new) and popped them back in. Idled fine then bogged down as I slowly turned the throttle. Now it won't even idle again, and we're back to excessive smoke.

I'm convinced it's the plugs or the leads. The plugs are CR9EK - colder than stock but it's all that Halfords had in. Apparently CR8EK are 'special order' for some reason. I had CR9EIX in last year and these seemed to run fine. Maybe the copper core 9 is too cold to burn off carbon deposits? I wouldn't have thought a single number would make that much difference though.

This plug caps are difficult, especially the front. I usually use a flat blade driver to wedge it out (right under the dog leg, not by the cable). I couldn't see any way of unscrewing anything, it looks like it was all moulded in. I'll try and get some CR8EK, but I don't see how they would make such a massive difference.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 27th March 2016, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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I swapped out the plugs again anyway, just to be sure. I went for the CR8EIX plugs as they were only 13 for the pair. Fitted but no joy, still the same problem. I've made a quick video of what's going on. I have the throttle very slightly open at the start of the video (it wouldn't idle any more) and I slowly let this go, at which point the bike dies.

https://youtu.be/C1MZnm0AEaY
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 27th March 2016, 02:54 PM
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That sounds like it's only running on one cylinder. Are both pipes getting hot? The fuel volume seems OK...so that's good! Now to figure out which cylinder is misbehaving....the SV doesn't run well on only one jug.

Do you have a temperature gun? That's the neatest way to inspect the pipe temperature, but a quick touch of the finger will work too...just be quick!! Some have sprayed water on them to see if one steams and the other not, but if you can isolate it to one or the other would be helpful.

Seeing as you have the O2 sensor, and there is a chance that it's gone south and WILL play hell with the light throttle running, if you get much farther into the diagnosis without joy you might unplug it to see if the running changes any.

I'm running the -9- heat range too....but have the excuse of increased compression ratio and believe the stock engine doesn't need that cold except maybe for extended Autobahn type running. You are correct in that the engine should run OK with the -9-'s though they will be more succeptable to fouling of course. I ran one summer on -9-'s with the stock engine and it was fine...so this problem lies elsewhere.

If both jugs are firing....then it sounds like it's getting excessive fuel. I know you said you checked the vacuum hoses...especially the one to the 'boost sensor'..yes? The manual has a check you can run on it to be sure it's not gone wacky which will make the injectors just dump the fuel and is on the 'possible culprit' list. SV1000S 2003 Service Manual

It's cumbersome to diagnose a machine long distance like this! To review: You've set the TPS and it seems to be working correctly...yes? Even without the engine running the line '-C00' should move to the top with just a wee bit of throttle moving. A bad TPS could make the engine run poorly. A bad IAP sensor could also...so it might be worth a check with a vacuum gauge and voltmeter to see that it's scaling correctly when vacuum is applied. It should show .5-4.85V with no vacuum to full 28"applied...or the other way around I can't remember.

Are you sure the sparkplug cap won't come off? The coil end is potted with some epoxy or such but the cap just screws on...though someone might have added some RTV to seal the connection. It'll unscrew! Especially if you find one pipe colder than the other your original thought that it's spark related might very well be correct. With only one jug contributing and needing to hold the throttle open it'll mess up the working jug too so finding both plugs fouled seems normal in this case. See if both pipes are hot....then go from there. And let's unplug the O2 sensor just to take it out of the mix for now as they'll run just fine without it and the ECU will set a fixed idle mixture setting.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 27th March 2016, 06:45 PM
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Unplug and Ohm, check resistance, of spark-plug leads and caps.
Check coils.
-From 2003 service manual, 7-23:
Quote:
IGNITION COIL RESISTANCE
• Disconnect the spark plug caps.
Measure the ignition coil resistance in both the primary and secondary windings. If the resistance is not within the standard range, replace the ignition coil with a new one.
Ignition coil resistance:
Primary : 2 .8 - 4.2 S2 (O terminal - S terminal)
Secondary: 24 - 36 kL2 (Plug cap - O terminal)
Primary test is coil-to-coil: positive terminal to negative terminal.
Secondary test is plug-cap to positive terminal on coil.

Negative terminal nearly aligns with plug wire terminal at opposite side of coil.
(tried & failed paste-in diagrams of coil terminals)
What is resistance with Secondary test for only coil?
What is resistance with Secondary test for only plug-wire & cap?

Last edited by jscottj; 27th March 2016 at 06:56 PM. Reason: wonder
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 28th March 2016, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the new thoughts guys, I'm still diagnosing but getting closer.

Found a split in the vacuum hose to the rear cylinder, though I think I did this when I was trying to unhook it a few days ago. Nevertheless, I cut some new rubber tubing and replaced both hoses that go to the throttle bodies.

Both cylinders are firing, and I've checked that both are producing good sparks using the CR9s I took out yesterday. I did remove the caps from the HT leads anyway and cut off about 4mm where I could see fresh copper wire. Connected them back on (pita to screw them back on) and fitted it all back up. I checked the coil resistance while I was at it - front one was in spec for both primary and secondary, rear was in spec for secondary and I didn't test primary as I couldn't get to it. Knowing it was producing a spark, and the higher resistance was OK, I think they're both fine.

Another thing I considered was the fast idle cam. I haven't tested with a meter, but I could see the cam in operation while the bike was idling, so I think it's fine.

One thing that is concerning me is the input voltage for the TPS. The manual says it should be 4.5 - 5.5v, but I'm only seeing 1.1v. I thought this was taken from the same pin on the ECM (number 10 in the manual) as the other sensors, but they read ~5v just fine.

I ramped up the idle speed to get it running, and took another video. It sounds much better, but still not right. I'll have a go with the O2 sensor disconnected once I've warmed up a little, then check the other sensors are in spec.

https://youtu.be/6G3G7knX9mc
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 28th March 2016, 11:51 AM
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Hey...have you checked the 'Green Connector'? That bugger supplies power to the whole bike and if the main connection fries it'll do weird things until it finally cooks all the way and you get no power at all. Worth a look!
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 28th March 2016, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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I haven't taken the connector out to inspect, but a visual inspection in-situ doesn't appear to show anything abnormal. There's no signs of scorching or melting around the connector block.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 28th March 2016, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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I think I may have found the problem - the TPS itself.

I still don't understand how I'm only reading 1v to the coupler, but I checked the resistances between the P/W and B/Br wires and they were way over what the manual says. Throttle closed was 5K ohm, fully open as 28K ohm. Even adjusting it to the farthest limit didn't bring it down, so I think it needs replacing. My suspicion for this being the problem started when I tried to readjust following the work this morning. Going from a steady idle (as in the link above) to really rough running - the same as the original problem. I'll get it replaced and see if anything improves.

Thanks again for all the help.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 28th March 2016, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzUK View Post
I haven't taken the connector out to inspect, but a visual inspection in-situ doesn't appear to show anything abnormal. There's no signs of scorching or melting around the connector block.
This does not let you out of the woods just as yet!! That connector failure is a sneaky bastard and will cook internally while the external appearance will remain normal. Please pull it apart and verify that it's good. You'll lose your mind if you change parts and run in circles for a while then end up back at the GC and find it cooked. If it's not...great!!! Apply some dialectric grease and put it back together...or just preemptively bypass the power lead just to be sure it won't bother you in the future.

The TPS can absolutely screw up how it runs! But I'm concerned that you aren't getting the 5v reference voltage that it's supposed to be seeing. A few years ago I got a spare set of TB's on Ebay so I'd have an extra set of injectors and sensors on hand just in case for diagnostic purposes. You can pick up the whole set for less than a single injector or sensor most of the time...might be worth a check.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 29th March 2016, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RecoilRob View Post
I'm concerned that you aren't getting the 5v reference voltage that it's supposed to be seeing.
This is my main concern. I know the voltage from the ECU is OK as the other sensors take their 5v feed from the same pins. The only reason I can figure for seeing only 1v is either poor connection to the volt meter or corrosion somewhere on the red wire to the TPS, giving increased resistance. The manual doesn't say what to do except to check the ECU. Not sure how to tackle this other than testing for resistance between the red wire and pin 10 on the ECU.

Oh, and thanks for the advice on grabbing 2nd hand throttle bodies - found a set on ebay for less than an aftermarket TPS sensor on its own. Be great to swap out those nasty injector rail screws that are made of French cheese at the same time.
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