Clutch issues after DL1000a clutch upgrade and WERKS basket install - SV1000 Portal
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 29th November 2019, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Clutch issues after DL1000a clutch upgrade and WERKS basket install

So, to start things off, I'm hoping someone can give me a hand sorting out a clutch issue I'm having. I recently installed a WERKS clutch basket (which is fantastic) and a 2018 DL1000a slipper clutch. I used the resources here on SV-Portal and got some help from Michael Schmidt when I was sourcing the parts and putting it together. What I'm not understanding is that quite a few folks have done this same upgrade with no issues so I'm not sure what I've done wrong.

Could it be the oil I'm using (Rotella T6)? Maybe I need thicker steel plates in the clutch pack (the current plates are from the original sv1000 clutch pack and measure around 2mm)? I'm using Vesrah friction discs which are generally very good quality. Any feedback would be appreciated. I've completely overhauled this bike over the past 2 years and now that the project is just about completed, this is the final hurdle before I can get this bike back on the road.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 01:33 AM
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 04:18 AM Thread Starter
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The clutch keeps slipping. It's very bad when going up hill. I give the bike more throttle and it's as if nothing is happening...in fact, the bike gets slower. It's driving me nuts since I've taken everything apart and put it back together 4 times already. I believe everything is correct even up to the final friction disc being offset from the rest. I'm going to try again in the morning since I'm just getting pissed off now.
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CAst8ofMind View Post
The clutch keeps slipping. It's very bad when going up hill. I give the bike more throttle and it's as if nothing is happening...in fact, the bike gets slower. It's driving me nuts since I've taken everything apart and put it back together 4 times already. I believe everything is correct even up to the final friction disc being offset from the rest. I'm going to try again in the morning since I'm just getting pissed off now.


It sounds like your stack height might be too small and the pressure plate is bottoming out on the center hub, or maybe the clutch canít get full force onto the pack because of the slave or rod not being allowed to move full stroke properly?

Are you shimming the springs back from stock at all?

Vesrah clutch plates are typically good, but I always try to use OEMs. I have not had a set of the Vesrah plates in hand for a 14 and up DL so I can not comment.

I refuse to use or even pour Rotella into a bike if a customer supplies it.

-ms


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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 02:53 PM
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Any time you make a conversion like this, you have to use the right parts. These 2014+ inner hub assemblies stack up differently than the SV or DL earlier versions. I don't have much experience with these new style. But I would be certain I was using the right washers. I can tell you the 2014+ style pushes the clutch pack out toward the outer part of the clutch basket more than the early style. Which tells me spacing is critical to get right. The thickness of the big washers behind the clutch basket, in front of the clutch basket where the hub sits are critical. Make sure you have the all the parts that are intended for the 2014+ style inner hub. I don't even know if the steels are the same thickness as before? The most common issue on first generation bikes is the pressure plate not being engaged into the slots on the inner hub. But they usually won't hardly even move when like that. Yours moves down the road...but slips badly. Like Michael said, that should mean the pressure plate isn't applying all the pressure it is supposed to. Is that due to spacing ( washers ), or some other part not fitting right, or setup I just don't know.

It is not the oil you are using. It would not be my recommended oil either, but it isn't the root of the problem.


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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
Any time you make a conversion like this, you have to use the right parts. These 2014+ inner hub assemblies stack up differently than the SV or DL earlier versions. I don't have much experience with these new style. But I would be certain I was using the right washers. I can tell you the 2014+ style pushes the clutch pack out toward the outer part of the clutch basket more than the early style. Which tells me spacing is critical to get right. The thickness of the big washers behind the clutch basket, in front of the clutch basket where the hub sits are critical. Make sure you have the all the parts that are intended for the 2014+ style inner hub. I don't even know if the steels are the same thickness as before? The most common issue on first generation bikes is the pressure plate not being engaged into the slots on the inner hub. But they usually won't hardly even move when like that. Yours moves down the road...but slips badly. Like Michael said, that should mean the pressure plate isn't applying all the pressure it is supposed to. Is that due to spacing ( washers ), or some other part not fitting right, or setup I just don't know.



It is not the oil you are using. It would not be my recommended oil either, but it isn't the root of the problem.


In general the steel plate thicknesses are the same. The main standard plates are 2.0mm, and then to adjust stack heights you can get the 2.3mm plates and also an optional 1.8mm plate. The SV plates can be used.

The frictions are unique to these bikes (31J product code) and need to be used for the conversion. These clutches use 3 of the large ID friction plates. One goes in at the judder spring, and the other two are the last plates in. The thickness of all the frictions are different. If I remember correctly the 14 and up bikes are 9 total friction plates and the older DL and the SV1000 are 10 friction plates.

The washer that goes behind the center hub is critical as you state. This washer does need to get swapped during the conversion to the DL 2.5mm thick washer that is common to all the year DL1000. The SV washer is huge at 5.8mm!

Cheers
-ms
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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It sounds like your stack height might be too small and the pressure plate is bottoming out on the center hub, or maybe the clutch can’t get full force onto the pack because of the slave or rod not being allowed to move full stroke properly?

Are you shimming the springs back from stock at all?

Vesrah clutch plates are typically good, but I always try to use OEMs. I have not had a set of the Vesrah plates in hand for a 14 and up DL so I can not comment.

I refuse to use or even pour Rotella into a bike if a customer supplies it.

-ms[/QUOTE]

What's wrong with rotella? I wasn't aware of any negative effects and it was recommended by a few friends of mine. What's a better oil to use??

When you say shimming the springs, what exactly are you referring to? The stock sv has 6 short springs, the updated DL1k set-up has 3 long springs. It's impossible to use the original springs from the sv.

As for master cylinder engagement, I rebuilt the master cylinder and cleaned up the slave cylinder and reassembled. I confirmed engagement last night before I put everything back together. I squeezed the clutch lever and everything looked normal.

Another issue I'm having is that the engine sounds very smooth and healthy but once I shift into first the bike keeps bucking until I'm above 3k rpm. I think maybe it's related to the front sprocket when I replaced it and the chain last weekend. I torqued the main bolt to 80 ft/lbs like the service manual says and there aren't stiff links in the chain so I'm at a loss with what the issue could be.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidt314 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
Any time you make a conversion like this, you have to use the right parts. These 2014+ inner hub assemblies stack up differently than the SV or DL earlier versions. I don't have much experience with these new style. But I would be certain I was using the right washers. I can tell you the 2014+ style pushes the clutch pack out toward the outer part of the clutch basket more than the early style. Which tells me spacing is critical to get right. The thickness of the big washers behind the clutch basket, in front of the clutch basket where the hub sits are critical. Make sure you have the all the parts that are intended for the 2014+ style inner hub. I don't even know if the steels are the same thickness as before? The most common issue on first generation bikes is the pressure plate not being engaged into the slots on the inner hub. But they usually won't hardly even move when like that. Yours moves down the road...but slips badly. Like Michael said, that should mean the pressure plate isn't applying all the pressure it is supposed to. Is that due to spacing ( washers ), or some other part not fitting right, or setup I just don't know.



It is not the oil you are using. It would not be my recommended oil either, but it isn't the root of the problem.


In general the steel plate thicknesses are the same. The main standard plates are 2.0mm, and then to adjust stack heights you can get the 2.3mm plates and also an optional 1.8mm plate. The SV plates can be used.

The frictions are unique to these bikes (31J product code) and need to be used for the conversion. These clutches use 3 of the large ID friction plates. One goes in at the judder spring, and the other two are the last plates in. The thickness of all the frictions are different. If I remember correctly the 14 and up bikes are 9 total friction plates and the older DL and the SV1000 are 10 friction plates.

The washer that goes behind the center hub is critical as you state. This washer does need to get swapped during the conversion to the DL 2.5mm thick washer that is common to all the year DL1000. The SV washer is huge at 5.8mm!

Cheers
-ms
I've followed all of the directions from the earlier threads you posted back in 2013. You were even nice enough to let me email you the parts list I ordered to confirm I was on the right track. Everything has been assembled in the correct order with the only differing item being the vesrah friction discs instead of the Suzuki discs but Vesrah confirms that the fitment is correct for the 2014 + DL.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAst8ofMind View Post
It sounds like your stack height might be too small and the pressure plate is bottoming out on the center hub, or maybe the clutch canít get full force onto the pack because of the slave or rod not being allowed to move full stroke properly?

Are you shimming the springs back from stock at all?

Vesrah clutch plates are typically good, but I always try to use OEMs. I have not had a set of the Vesrah plates in hand for a 14 and up DL so I can not comment.

I refuse to use or even pour Rotella into a bike if a customer supplies it.

-ms
What's wrong with rotella? I wasn't aware of any negative effects and it was recommended by a few friends of mine. What's a better oil to use??

When you say shimming the springs, what exactly are you referring to? The stock sv has 6 short springs, the updated DL1k set-up has 3 long springs. It's impossible to use the original springs from the sv.

As for master cylinder engagement, I rebuilt the master cylinder and cleaned up the slave cylinder and reassembled. I confirmed engagement last night before I put everything back together. I squeezed the clutch lever and everything looked normal.

Another issue I'm having is that the engine sounds very smooth and healthy but once I shift into first the bike keeps bucking until I'm above 3k rpm. I think maybe it's related to the front sprocket when I replaced it and the chain last weekend. I torqued the main bolt to 80 ft/lbs like the service manual says and there aren't stiff links in the chain so I'm at a loss with what the issue could be.[/QUOTE]



By shimming I meant the DL springs as in the posts I talk about back shimming the springs to alter the break point/slip.

I donít want to get into an oil battle. I do a fair number of engines and I have replaced lots of worn parts such as camshafts and buckets which were heavily worn after not that many miles. Indicators from oil analysis and owner history lead to using Rotella. Some Rotella versions will make a clutch slip. I dontít know which ones because I wonít touch it, but I have had to drain it and put in other oil to keep clutch from slipping. After replacing with other oil, clutch is way better and bike shift a whole bunch better. Oils I use primarily are Motorex Power Synt 4T, Motul 3100 or 300V, Yamalube, or GN4 Honda. Any oil you use should be MA or MA2 certified which is the wet clutch spec.

What is your total stack thickness?
-ms


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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 30th November 2019, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Good to know. I'll use a different oil should I not be able to resolve the issue I'm having. I was able to determine that the clutch lever I have isn't disengaging the clutch all the way which may be a factor in this whole ordeal.

As for the total thickness, I'd have to take the bike apart again to measure it. I'd like to test drive the bike again first to see if that resolved the problem. Since it's raining in the Bay Area right now I'm going to wait until it clears up.

On another note, I took the front sprocket off the bike again to see if it needed to be realigned or something. After putting it all back together, I'm still having the chain jumping issue which makes the bike really jerky when in gear. Maybe I'm overlooking something that's a simple fix but I can't figure it out for the life of me.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 1st December 2019, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
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So I fixed the clutch slip issue...the aftermarket clutch lever I'm using (cheap eBay lever) isn't able to disengage the clutch unless the lever is maxed out to the full range. I ordered a crg lever in the hopes it will do a better job. Other than that, this bike rips!

Now it's time to fix the jumping chain issue and taking this thing to get dyno'd and the suspension set. There's no way I would have been able to do all of the work I've done without the help from this forum. Thank you to everyone who's been keeping this forum going!!
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 2nd December 2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CAst8ofMind View Post

Now it's time to fix the jumping chain issue............

By jumping, you mean the chain is jumping teeth ?

Or the bike is really behaving badly and getting lots of lash under certain revs ? If thats the case, then its time for a throttle balance and TPS adjustment at a minimum.....may be other things, but thats the first stop.

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 2nd December 2019, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CAst8ofMind View Post
So I fixed the clutch slip issue...the aftermarket clutch lever I'm using (cheap eBay lever) isn't able to disengage the clutch unless the lever is maxed out to the full range. I ordered a crg lever in the hopes it will do a better job. Other than that, this bike rips!



Now it's time to fix the jumping chain issue and taking this thing to get dyno'd and the suspension set. There's no way I would have been able to do all of the work I've done without the help from this forum. Thank you to everyone who's been keeping this forum going!!


I hate these crap levers... now you see why. I have seen so many issues with clutch and brake levers. I wonít install them for anyone for these types of reasons.

I am glad you got it sorted. I canít wait to hear your impressions of the clutch set up.
-ms


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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 2nd December 2019, 05:30 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Missing Link View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAst8ofMind View Post

Now it's time to fix the jumping chain issue............

By jumping, you mean the chain is jumping teeth ?

Or the bike is really behaving badly and getting lots of lash under certain revs ? If thats the case, then its time for a throttle balance and TPS adjustment at a minimum.....may be other things, but thats the first stop.
Well it's more like an issue I've seen earlier. It's this same exact problem:
https://youtu.be/c_cLRMix3KY

I reinstalled the front sprocket 3 times already and can't figure it out.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 2nd December 2019, 05:33 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAst8ofMind View Post
So I fixed the clutch slip issue...the aftermarket clutch lever I'm using (cheap eBay lever) isn't able to disengage the clutch unless the lever is maxed out to the full range. I ordered a crg lever in the hopes it will do a better job. Other than that, this bike rips!



Now it's time to fix the jumping chain issue and taking this thing to get dyno'd and the suspension set. There's no way I would have been able to do all of the work I've done without the help from this forum. Thank you to everyone who's been keeping this forum going!!


I hate these crap levers... now you see why. I have seen so many issues with clutch and brake levers. I won’t install them for anyone for these types of reasons.

I am glad you got it sorted. I can’t wait to hear your impressions of the clutch set up.
-ms
So far it's great other than the fact it acts like it guzzled a bottle of hot sauce.
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