Setting cam lobe centers without adjustable gear sets - Page 2 - SV1000 Portal
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post #16 of 58 (permalink) Old 30th November 2015, 08:04 PM
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This is the degree kit I used: http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Cams-CIK-0...gree+wheel+kit It comes with proper adapters and piston stops so all you have to do is figure out where to clamp the magnetic base and fab up a pointer and you're good to go.
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post #17 of 58 (permalink) Old 3rd December 2015, 02:45 PM
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Thank you for replying to my post. Due to ridiculous shipping fees from the US to Greece, I had to locate all said items (plus various others such as a micrometer, special socket for the thrust adjuster, etc.) in the EU market which took me a couple of days. Everything's ordered and on its way now.

I'm still digesting the procedure, and new questions keep popping up in my head.

1. The finding true TDC procedure is pretty clear to me now. What still puzzles me is how to fix the Degree Wheel in a way that it allows moving the crankshaft without moving the wheel itself!! Is there some combination of socket/bolt that allows it? Any input/pics would be a great help!

2. The cam lobe center part of the procedure is still a bit fuzzy. It's still not clear to me which part of the camshaft/lobe/valve/whatever the dial indicator should touch ()

3. Still haven't figured out what/where the decompressors are on this engine and what I need to do to them (if anything) as part of this procedure.

4. Let's say that I've finished all measurements successfully and typed in the data in the worksheet... what's the sweet spot degree-wise that I'm looking for?


Thanks for all your help!
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post #18 of 58 (permalink) Old 3rd December 2015, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidt314 View Post
... Running the intake cam to the 103-107 and the exhaust to the 105-109 range should give the bike more punch everywhere in the range. If I use adjustable cam gears, I typically target 105-106 on the intake and 107-108 on the exhaust with stock cams...

-MS


Ok, you've already covered my 4th question

I've read so much stuff the past few days and seen so many videos that my memory is starting to overwrite itself...
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post #19 of 58 (permalink) Old 3rd December 2015, 03:03 PM
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ok, here's 2 more:

5. If I've understood correctly, after doing the measurements, removing the camshafts and advancing/retarding the idler gear, I should reposition the camshafts with their positioning marks as level/parallel as possible to the head (as per manual instructions), right ??

6. What about the valve clearance measurement/adjustment? Should I do it before, after, or it doesn't matter ???
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post #20 of 58 (permalink) Old 3rd December 2015, 08:38 PM
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Changing cam timing shouldn't do anything to clearance.
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post #21 of 58 (permalink) Old 3rd December 2015, 09:44 PM
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To affix the degree wheel, I stacked some washers under it then held it with the stock magneto rotor bolt. Leave it just snug until you find true TDC then smack it tight enough to spin the engine without moving. When you're playing with the timing, but SURE to use a tight fitting socket on the bolt and a breaker-bar (rather than a ratchet) because you will have to exert effort to open the valves as you turn the crank....but once they go over TDC they'll push the motor ahead with a surprising amount of force if you're not ready to control it. You have to ease it down because you'll be checking at .050" (or some other distance when finding Lobe Center) and if you let it jump ahead it'll totally mess up your readings.

You need the dial indicator to be moving as the cam follower (bucket/tappet) moves and this takes a little ingenuity as there's little space and you'll need to fab up a bent yet thin rod to get to the edge of the follower without getting hit by the cam as it spins. CAN be done...you'll see. I got a set of dial indicator ends of differing lengths and shapes and found one that fit in OK...just be careful.

The 'decompressor' is only on one exhaust valve, so just put the dial indicator on the other one for a true reading of the centerline.

When you put the cams back in, you'll be trying to get them back in time (of course) but be mindful of which way you were trying to move them and take that into account with the relationship of the line to the head surface. If you move it...it'll no longer be exactly level...but that's what you want! It all makes a lot more sense once you've got things set up and are trying to do the job. You might make mistakes and go the wrong way at first, but you'll get the hang of it and by the end of the day you'll be in control. With adjustable gears, I worked on mine for an entire week of evenings after work and finished it up on the weekend. Yes...I AM slow. But I was trying to hit within .1 degree and found this difficult to accomplish...both making such tiny adjustments and then accurately varifying them with the degree wheel. You'll see...it's tricky! And again...you MUST maintain total control of the crankshaft rotation to do this so be sure to have a tight fitting socket and bar to fit the crank bolt.

Junkie is of course right...the valve clearances won't change just from cam R&R, but when you radically alter the cam lobe positions it's always good practice to check the piston/valve clearances just to be sure you're safe. My cam timings ended up being dictated more by what P/V clearances I was comfortable with than a degree setting that I was trying to hit. The farther you can advance the intake valve the better...but if you get too greedy you can shove the valves into the piston as it's rising to TDC...and that qualifies as BAD. A 'happy place' to be is something that the 'Old Timers' always talked about ....having the intake valve 'chase' the piston down the bore. When you get the timing just right, as the valve opens the clearance to the valve will not change as the piston is moving at the same speed until the valve is near full open. Watch for this when you're adjusting things...the engines run good when set up like this. And on mine...it came at 106 like Mr. Schmidt recommended so perhaps that's why the engines like this setting.

To check P/V clearance you need some way to lever the valve open and you can either fab up something on your own or buy the special tool that can reach in on the edge of the bucket and push the follower down until the valve touches the piston. You do this for the upper 30 degrees of rotation before and after TDC until you get a feel for how close you are. Without milling the top off the jug or the head surface you 'shouldn't' get into P/V clearance problems...but it's still good to check!! With TLR Wiseco pistons and .020" milled off the jugs, .005" off the heads mine was starting to get a little cozy so I was happy to do that extra little bit and check the P/V clearances. Peace of Mind. Another reminder...keep total control of the crankshaft!!!! I know..you said that already, but if you let it snap ahead on it's own....and you've moved the cams perhaps too far (you won't really know until you degree them afterall) then the possibility of piston striking valve is VERY real. And they won't tolerate much contact without bending....which is BAD. Be careful and it'll be a wonderful experience and the engine will RIP!! You just don't want to damage anything while doing it. Good luck!
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post #22 of 58 (permalink) Old 14th December 2015, 07:25 PM
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I just re-read the write up (absolutely outstanding) and noticed at the bottom that this method does not improve the exhaust cam timing on the 05-07 engines:

"The 05 and up SV1000 engines have significantly different cam timing on the exhaust side than
the 03-04 bikes. I have often found this technique does not produce a set of lobe center values
that are improved from the stock numbers. In these cases I have pressed off the exhaust
camshaft gear sets and rotated the gear clockwise about one quarter of a tooth pitch and pressed
it back on. Remeasure the new lobe center values and enter the new values into the
spreadsheet and you should be able to find a set of more optimal lobe center values."
- MS

If this is the case, would the best option for K5-K7 engines be to just advance the intake cam instead of advancing everything and then backing the exhaust cam back off?
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post #23 of 58 (permalink) Old 14th December 2015, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benton0311 View Post
I just re-read the write up (absolutely outstanding) and noticed at the bottom that this method does not improve the exhaust cam timing on the 05-07 engines:



"The 05 and up SV1000 engines have significantly different cam timing on the exhaust side than

the 03-04 bikes. I have often found this technique does not produce a set of lobe center values

that are improved from the stock numbers. In these cases I have pressed off the exhaust

camshaft gear sets and rotated the gear clockwise about one quarter of a tooth pitch and pressed

it back on. Remeasure the new lobe center values and enter the new values into the

spreadsheet and you should be able to find a set of more optimal lobe center values."

- MS



If this is the case, would the best option for K5-K7 engines be to just advance the intake cam instead of advancing everything and then backing the exhaust cam back off?

It is a bit tough to say. Engine to engine can vary some so direct measurement is crucial. The important cam in my opinion is the intake for sure. The problem is that both cams phase together since they drive off the same gear. If your starting LSA is about 110, the resulting LSAs should be the same but with different lobe canters. For example if centers are 110/110, you can get a 106 intake, but resulting exhaust would be 114.

-ms


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post #24 of 58 (permalink) Old 15th December 2015, 06:55 PM
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Hmmm.... Just trying to think things through before commencing valvetrain work next month but I haven't pulled the valve covers yet to measure since we keep getting good riding weather. Obviously if the specs are closer to ideal I won’t even bother and just adjust the valves if needed.

I found both cam specs from your posts in a 2010 thread:
http://www.sv-portal.com/forums/5-tw...buehler-2.html

From this I can see that using the same method on a K5+ gives you: Intake 104.09, Exhaust 116.785. Pretty close on the intake but way off for the exhaust. Since any of the combinations will change exhaust timing by the same amount as the intake (e.g. ideal 106 Intake = 114.875 Exhaust) , this method will always move the exhaust further off target.

From my very elementary understanding, wouldn’t changing either cam independently of the other change LSA? So when you use this method on a K5+ engine and then adjust the exhaust cam afterward, wouldn’t that then change the LSA? I guess this is where I’m wondering if pulling the intake cam gear and advancing it a few degrees might be simpler than advancing both cams together via idler and then pulling the gear off of the exhaust to retard it since you need to pull a cam gear anyway and LSA will change.

K3-K4 engines have an LSA of 107.375*
K5-K7 engines have an LSA of 110.438*

Using the method described for the K5+ engines, the separate ¼ tooth adjustment of the exhaust cams should retard timing by around 4.4* bringing the exhaust cam to ~ 112.3* (near stock 111.125) and change LSA to 108.195.

For my K5, advancing only the intake cam by remounting the gear by 4.4* would yield: 105.35 Intake, 111.125 Exhaust (stock), and an LSA of 108.238. I guess the question then would be of what LSA range would be acceptable: does the K5 need to be right at 110.438* or would anywhere in 107 – 110* suffice.
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post #25 of 58 (permalink) Old 16th December 2015, 02:04 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by benton0311 View Post
Hmmm.... Just trying to think things through before commencing valvetrain work next month but I haven't pulled the valve covers yet to measure since we keep getting good riding weather. Obviously if the specs are closer to ideal I won’t even bother and just adjust the valves if needed.

I found both cam specs from your posts in a 2010 thread:
http://www.sv-portal.com/forums/5-tw...buehler-2.html

From this I can see that using the same method on a K5+ gives you: Intake 104.09, Exhaust 116.785. Pretty close on the intake but way off for the exhaust. Since any of the combinations will change exhaust timing by the same amount as the intake (e.g. ideal 106 Intake = 114.875 Exhaust) , this method will always move the exhaust further off target.

From my very elementary understanding, wouldn’t changing either cam independently of the other change LSA? So when you use this method on a K5+ engine and then adjust the exhaust cam afterward, wouldn’t that then change the LSA? I guess this is where I’m wondering if pulling the intake cam gear and advancing it a few degrees might be simpler than advancing both cams together via idler and then pulling the gear off of the exhaust to retard it since you need to pull a cam gear anyway and LSA will change.

K3-K4 engines have an LSA of 107.375*
K5-K7 engines have an LSA of 110.438*

Using the method described for the K5+ engines, the separate ¼ tooth adjustment of the exhaust cams should retard timing by around 4.4* bringing the exhaust cam to ~ 112.3* (near stock 111.125) and change LSA to 108.195.

For my K5, advancing only the intake cam by remounting the gear by 4.4* would yield: 105.35 Intake, 111.125 Exhaust (stock), and an LSA of 108.238. I guess the question then would be of what LSA range would be acceptable: does the K5 need to be right at 110.438* or would anywhere in 107 – 110* suffice.

I would strive to get an LSA of 107-108. Then set the gear to get the intake to 106-108. In my opinion 110 is too big. Also think about upping the compression. More compression is also what these things really need. The combo of more compression and the better lobe centers really start to wake these bikes up.
-ms


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post #26 of 58 (permalink) Old 17th January 2016, 10:50 AM
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OK, big day-week coming up!! I finally got all tools/parts to get crackin'

Having removed cowling, tank and radiator, the next major obstacle is the main wiring harness on the left side of the rear cylinder. I'll try disconnecting enough connectors to allow me moving it out of the way. Really excited about what's to follow!!!

Two questions at this point:

1. I do need to measure true TDC on both cylinders, right ??? Or not ??

2. What's that I read about valve lash and the need to remove it??? Is this applicable to the SV's engine? If so how is it achieved?

Thanks!!
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post #27 of 58 (permalink) Old 17th January 2016, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Setting cam lobe centers without adjustable gear sets

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Originally Posted by coz View Post
OK, big day-week coming up!! I finally got all tools/parts to get crackin'



Having removed cowling, tank and radiator, the next major obstacle is the main wiring harness on the left side of the rear cylinder. I'll try disconnecting enough connectors to allow me moving it out of the way. Really excited about what's to follow!!!



Two questions at this point:



1. I do need to measure true TDC on both cylinders, right ??? Or not ??



2. What's that I read about valve lash and the need to remove it??? Is this applicable to the SV's engine? If so how is it achieved?



Thanks!!

1. Yes, true TDC is absolutely needed or measurements won't be accurate.

2. It is applicable but you don't really need to worry about it unless you are trying to accurately measure duration. To just set the centers I don't worry about it. The lift point for measurement is a bit arbitrary on symmetric cams as long as you use the same values for open an close. Here is what I do. Pick if you want to measure open/close at 0.040" or 0.050" lift. Measure valve clearance. Now subtract the clearance out of the 0.040" or 0.050" and use that as the opening closing figure.

For example if I want to use 0.040" lift for measurement, and my valve clearance is 0.006", then use 0.034" as a measurement point. This is kind of like setting the to 0 clearance.

-ms


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post #28 of 58 (permalink) Old 17th January 2016, 09:56 PM
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Thanks for that!! Got the head covers and rotor cover off, measured valve clearances, I'm now ready to do the lobe center measurement.

I realize the dial indicator I've bought won't do as is, I need to buy or fabricate some sort of tip for it to get to the tappet.


I need another clarification at this point: When I read "lift" I am thinking when the lobe starts to compress the bucket (tappet), right? So in essence lift means depression, right? So when looking at the dial gauge, lift would translate to negative values, right (i.e. the dial gauge tip will extend, riiiight???) ????

Thanks!!
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post #29 of 58 (permalink) Old 17th January 2016, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for that!! Got the head covers and rotor cover off, measured valve clearances, I'm now ready to do the lobe center measurement.



I realize the dial indicator I've bought won't do as is, I need to buy or fabricate some sort of tip for it to get to the tappet.





I need another clarification at this point: When I read "lift" I am thinking when the lobe starts to compress the bucket (tappet), right? So in essence lift means depression, right? So when looking at the dial gauge, lift would translate to negative values, right (i.e. the dial gauge tip will extend, riiiight???) ????



Thanks!!

I use the term lift to mean valve lift. So yes, this is the translation of the bucket farther into the head.

The way I use my dial gauge is I set it to say 0.034" as in the example I used above. Then, when the indicator hits 0.000" on the opening this is my point of measurement.

-ms


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post #30 of 58 (permalink) Old 18th January 2016, 11:22 PM
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Well that was a hair-raising, gut-wrenching experience!! I'm done measuring the lobe centers on the rear cylinder.... and managed to drop a 2 mm pin from the dial gauge inside the cylinder head in the process. 2 hours (which seemed like 2 years) later I fished it out with a magnet.

Here are the measurements for rear cylinder (I double-, triple-, and quadruple-checked: results are repeatable)

Intake opens at 3.5 degrees BTDC, closes at 50 degrees ABDC
Exhaust opens at 40 degrees BBDC, closes at 12 degrees ATDC


This gives me a 113,25 degree lobe center for the intake and a 104 for the exhaust.

To my untrained, stressed-out eye, this seems like a long stretch from your base values!! Is it? Or do the results seem plausible?

Advancing 1 tooth would give me the best results, it seems, taking me to 107,59 and 109.66 respectively...

Tomorrow I'm planning to advance the rear idler gear before moving on to measuring the front cylinder... unless for any reason you think I shouldn't (?!?)
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