Setting cam lobe centers without adjustable gear sets - SV1000 Portal
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post #1 of 53 (permalink) Old 28th September 2013, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Setting cam lobe centers without adjustable gear sets

I have been using a technique for several years now to reset the camshaft lobe centers on SV1000, TL1000, and DL1000 without using the expensive adjustable gear sets for low budget engine builds. It has taken me for ever to finally get a complete write up finished, but I think I have a pretty solid first draft that describes the technique and how to apply it to an SV1000.

I have attached the write up, but I am not able to attach the Excel sheet that does all the calculations for you. If you are interested in having a copy of the Excel sheet, please PM me your email address and I will send a copy.

Please note this my first complete draft, so if you see any issues with it please let me know and I can make edits to it if needed.

This is a simple method of unlocking more power in your motor.

Cheers
-MS
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post #2 of 53 (permalink) Old 28th September 2013, 03:07 PM
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Got the info- thank you!

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post #3 of 53 (permalink) Old 28th September 2013, 03:56 PM
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Thumbs up

Nice job..
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post #4 of 53 (permalink) Old 29th September 2013, 11:58 AM
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It works, and saved me large shovelfuls of mucking about....and cash. As far as I know no one on any other TL/SV/dl forum know about this.
Poor bastards
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post #5 of 53 (permalink) Old 29th September 2013, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rich57 View Post
It works, and saved me large shovelfuls of mucking about....and cash. As far as I know no one on any other TL/SV/dl forum know about this.
Poor bastards
Actually this might be true. I was quite surprised when I was searching around that the TL guys from my knowledge had not talked about this. Maybe they have, but I never have seen anything about. This should also work with the new DL1000 I would think too...

If there are member here who are members of the other related forums out there, feel free to post this link as a reference.

Cheers
-MS


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post #6 of 53 (permalink) Old 29th September 2013, 02:41 PM
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Michael - Just read through your PDF and the spreadsheet you kindly emailed through - great information with a walk-through on how to do it,
thank you for spending the time putting it all together and sharing it.
What sort of gains do you normally achieve by dialing the cams in this way ?
I was going to go down the vernier gear route (as this is what I use to dial the Scooby engines in that I build) but being a road based bike,dont really want to loose the scissor gears and increased valvetrain noise.

Mick
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post #7 of 53 (permalink) Old 29th September 2013, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rodbolt View Post
Michael - Just read through your PDF and the spreadsheet you kindly emailed through - great information with a walk-through on how to do it,
thank you for spending the time putting it all together and sharing it.
What sort of gains do you normally achieve by dialing the cams in this way ?
I was going to go down the vernier gear route (as this is what I use to dial the Scooby engines in that I build) but being a road based bike,dont really want to loose the scissor gears and increased valvetrain noise.

Mick
To be honest I do not think I have ever just done this one thing to a motor w/o adding compression or other modifications. Knowing the stock lobe centers though, changing some of the bikes lobe centers by 5-8 degrees on each cam does have significant effects on the how the engine should run in stock form. It is my opinion the stock cam timing is a compromise between power, delivery and emissions. Running the intake cam to the 103-107 and the exhaust to the 105-109 range should give the bike more punch everywhere in the range. If I use adjustable cam gears, I typically target 105-106 on the intake and 107-108 on the exhaust with stock cams. I like broad power with big punch in the midrange when I build these motors. I do know that with added compression and stock cams retimed the bike picks up significant power everywhere in the rev range and comes on really strong in the mid and revs all the way to redline with authority.

-MS


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post #8 of 53 (permalink) Old 29th September 2013, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodbolt View Post
I was going to go down the vernier gear route (as this is what I use to dial the Scooby engines in that I build) but being a road based bike,dont really want to loose the scissor gears and increased valvetrain noise.

Mick
I've got WebCam adjustable gears on mine, and it's actually quieter than with the stock scissors gears! None of that whine anymore, but in its' place there is a bit of chatter at low rpms. Still....it doesn't make near the volume it did before, but this might be different for each bike. When I mentioned this to Mike he replied that he'd noticed the same thing with the latest batches of WebCam gears (same as sold by Spears) as it seems they've tightened up the clearances a bit.

And Mike very kindly sent me the Beta version of this 'using the idler to adjust cam timing' idea last winter when I had mine apart for improvements. But I was so boggled by the math I broke down and got the adjustable gears. It was hard enough to get the cams exactly where we wanted them even with the gears! Those who are braver and more mechanically inclined sure could use the idler to accomplish the task, but it really looks like 'Rain Man' Mad Scientist Genius type stuff to me.

I don't remember if he said to re-mark the idler with some form of permanent paint (or the like) so somewhere down the road you or whomever will have a fighting chance to get it back in time correctly should you have to change your cam chains or whatnot.

Mike has been offering the suggestion to bump compression, reduce squish and re-time cams for a while now....and I'm very, very happy with the results. Engine pulls well from 4K to redline and just gets stronger as it comes up all the way to the limiter. I've got to believe that this engine is everything the TL's were...and more in the midrange with the better port design. Really wish everyone could enjoy the SV1K the way it could have been, instead of the emasculated version they chose to sell. But some of this was obviously emissions related so maybe it isn't all their fault.
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post #9 of 53 (permalink) Old 29th September 2013, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RecoilRob View Post
I've got WebCam adjustable gears on mine, and it's actually quieter than with the stock scissors gears! None of that whine anymore, but in its' place there is a bit of chatter at low rpms. Still....it doesn't make near the volume it did before, but this might be different for each bike. When I mentioned this to Mike he replied that he'd noticed the same thing with the latest batches of WebCam gears (same as sold by Spears) as it seems they've tightened up the clearances a bit.

And Mike very kindly sent me the Beta version of this 'using the idler to adjust cam timing' idea last winter when I had mine apart for improvements. But I was so boggled by the math I broke down and got the adjustable gears. It was hard enough to get the cams exactly where we wanted them even with the gears! Those who are braver and more mechanically inclined sure could use the idler to accomplish the task, but it really looks like 'Rain Man' Mad Scientist Genius type stuff to me.

I don't remember if he said to re-mark the idler with some form of permanent paint (or the like) so somewhere down the road you or whomever will have a fighting chance to get it back in time correctly should you have to change your cam chains or whatnot.

Mike has been offering the suggestion to bump compression, reduce squish and re-time cams for a while now....and I'm very, very happy with the results. Engine pulls well from 4K to redline and just gets stronger as it comes up all the way to the limiter. I've got to believe that this engine is everything the TL's were...and more in the midrange with the better port design. Really wish everyone could enjoy the SV1K the way it could have been, instead of the emasculated version they chose to sell. But some of this was obviously emissions related so maybe it isn't all their fault.
Thanks for the comments Rob. In regards to remarking the gears, the only time you would need to do this if the gears had to come out for some reason as you mention. As reliable as these engines are (minus mag rotor magnets), it may never come apart that far for the rest of its life. There are very few SV1000 owners out there that have had the heads off the bike that I have seen. The cams will go back in easily if they come out and they will just fit n so they line up close to the horizon of the head. One tooth either way and it should be way off.

If a dealer were to take it apart they would think "what idiot put this together?" They put it together and it feels slower... suckers

I really think people are stuck a bit in the TL aura. I rode the first 97 TL1000S we got at the dealer and the first 98 TL1000R we got too. They were really fast and damn fun and cool. I ride a stock TL S or R now and they do not seem as fast as I remembered in the past. Not that they have slowed down, but other things have gotten much faster with time. In stock trim TLS were really only a couple HP more than a stock SV. THey might have felt faster, but it is all in the delivery, the TL had a turn on surge where it could finally pump enough air and fuel through the giant intake valves and intake ports to get it going. The SV might not feel as fast, but it delivers clean smooth power all the way up to redline.

It is just like an old 4 barrel V-8. People would say "I love the kick you get when the extra 2 barrels open up." Uhh, if it is kicking like you say there is a carburetion issues that needs to be cleaned up. This is typically the engine stalling a bit and then it catches up quickly, giving a quick dip in power, and surging back. If it works right all 4 barrels should open and the power should be seamless.

There is also the fact that 1 year TLS seemed to be way faster Motorcycle.com even stated
"This year (98), they de-tuned the motor as well: The EFI map was reprogrammed to calm down low-end throttle response. We measured only 108 hp compared to 114 hp for last year pre-production unit."

This makes you wonder in stock trim, the SV might have been exactly the same power...

-MS


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post #10 of 53 (permalink) Old 30th September 2013, 02:50 AM
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Thanks for sharing. Great way to dial in cams. Looks like a nice weekend project.
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post #11 of 53 (permalink) Old 18th December 2014, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidt314 View Post
I have been using a technique for several years now to reset the camshaft lobe centers on SV1000, TL1000, and DL1000 without using the expensive adjustable gear sets for low budget engine builds. It has taken me for ever to finally get a complete write up finished, but I think I have a pretty solid first draft that describes the technique and how to apply it to an SV1000.

I have attached the write up, but I am not able to attach the Excel sheet that does all the calculations for you. If you are interested in having a copy of the Excel sheet, please PM me your email address and I will send a copy.

Please note this my first complete draft, so if you see any issues with it please let me know and I can make edits to it if needed.

This is a simple method of unlocking more power in your motor.

Cheers
-MS
An excellent write up. Mr Schmidt you are indeed a top man! I am considering this mod and would welcome your thoughts on the following:

1) Effectively the retiming involves a 26.226 crank degree advance of the idler pulley (one tooth on camchain side) compensated for by a 17.561 retard of the installed cams. The result being a 5.665 crank degree advance for both inlet and exhaust cams producing timing figs. of approx (+or- 1 degree) IN opens 13 deg BTDC, IN closes 45 deg ABDC, EX opens 47 deg BBDC, EX closes 9 deg ATDC. I calculated LC's of 106 inlet and 109 exhaust from this. Not identical to you but certainly in the ball park. My first question is have I got this right?

2) Would you recommend measuring std timing before beginning and then do the calculations, etc or is it safe to assume that differing tolerances will not be so great as to have to worry and just go for it? My greatest fear would obviously be Inlet valve/piston contact. But then you say it works with added compression so maybe it would be nicely safe with my standard K4 crowns. Unless of course you're talking HC pistons with deeper cut outs. Hmmm.

3) If the heads have got to come off to measure piston/valve clearance would you recommend a mild skim to raise compression? Or the barrels? It's very much a road bike so I'd be looking for 12:1 max.

4) If you see my first post (this is 3 of 3) you'll see my bike came without much of a top end at all. Both owners had literally kept it wrapped in blankets in dry sheds and cosmetically it is excellent but I think most of the maintenance stopped when it was out of warranty (@13k, now 26k). The chain alone made me cry and as for the airfilter..talk of a minger! Hopefully a K and N, removal of STV butterflies, desnorkelling and a throttle valve balance will restore at least some top end. Can you reassure me that the cam advance won't take some of it away? Oh and finally (topic drift I know) I'll test compression, but do you have to remove cams, remove decompressors, refit cams, test, remove cams, etc, etc, what a pain. The manual says not but one of your posts indicates you need to. Confused.

Cheers
Mick

Ps. For sake of amusement I should tell you that as a kid I thought the best way to set valve clearances was 1 thou IN, 2 thou EX, set at finger burning red hot. Not quite as daft now!
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post #12 of 53 (permalink) Old 18th December 2014, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yamman37 View Post
An excellent write up. Mr Schmidt you are indeed a top man! I am considering this mod and would welcome your thoughts on the following:

1) Effectively the retiming involves a 26.226 crank degree advance of the idler pulley (one tooth on camchain side) compensated for by a 17.561 retard of the installed cams. The result being a 5.665 crank degree advance for both inlet and exhaust cams producing timing figs. of approx (+or- 1 degree) IN opens 13 deg BTDC, IN closes 45 deg ABDC, EX opens 47 deg BBDC, EX closes 9 deg ATDC. I calculated LC's of 106 inlet and 109 exhaust from this. Not identical to you but certainly in the ball park. My first question is have I got this right?

2) Would you recommend measuring std timing before beginning and then do the calculations, etc or is it safe to assume that differing tolerances will not be so great as to have to worry and just go for it? My greatest fear would obviously be Inlet valve/piston contact. But then you say it works with added compression so maybe it would be nicely safe with my standard K4 crowns. Unless of course you're talking HC pistons with deeper cut outs. Hmmm.

3) If the heads have got to come off to measure piston/valve clearance would you recommend a mild skim to raise compression? Or the barrels? It's very much a road bike so I'd be looking for 12:1 max.

4) If you see my first post (this is 3 of 3) you'll see my bike came without much of a top end at all. Both owners had literally kept it wrapped in blankets in dry sheds and cosmetically it is excellent but I think most of the maintenance stopped when it was out of warranty (@13k, now 26k). The chain alone made me cry and as for the airfilter..talk of a minger! Hopefully a K and N, removal of STV butterflies, desnorkelling and a throttle valve balance will restore at least some top end. Can you reassure me that the cam advance won't take some of it away? Oh and finally (topic drift I know) I'll test compression, but do you have to remove cams, remove decompressors, refit cams, test, remove cams, etc, etc, what a pain. The manual says not but one of your posts indicates you need to. Confused.

Cheers
Mick

Ps. For sake of amusement I should tell you that as a kid I thought the best way to set valve clearances was 1 thou IN, 2 thou EX, set at finger burning red hot. Not quite as daft now!
1. You do have it right. There are 31 gear teeth on the chain side and 41 on the cam gear side. This creates 31 possible possible positions so there are lots of possibilities to choose from.

2. I would measure you exact machine. This would assure you you know what you have and what you are getting. I only see about 2 degrees variation between the motors I work on when they are all stone stock. Cam chain stretch, cylinder height, cam gear installation, and head thickness can all be factors. In general with a stock engine you won't be even close to worrying about piston to valve interference. These motor are very spacious and forgiving when stock. You can mill heads and cylinders to increase compression a fair bit and still have plenty of room before smashing bits into each other. It is always best to measure though. You can also measure piston to valve clearances by stacking adjustment shims. For example if you currently have a 3.00 shim installed and you are wanting a minimum of 1.0mm piston to valve clearance. Place a really thin shim on the valve like a 1.20mm, then put a 2.80 on top of it. The 1.20mm shim is thin enough that the second shim will still be captured and held in place by the recess in the valve spring retainer. Now the valve is at 1mm more lift for the whole cycle and the engine can be turned over slowly and checked for interference. Note that this can be used for a stock bike because the springs will not coil bind, but just mindful of this and also that if you are really close to hitting stuff, please take valve clearance into account.

3. Added compression is a really good thing for these motors. With added compression from milling the deck height down, milling the head down makes really nice mid range. I would recommend this to anybody. Setting the squish values down to 1mm or a bit less, and then milling the heads to set final compression ratio is a great way to go. With stock cams, and running pump gas you can still go more than 12:1, but that number will work fine.

4. With added compression and cam timing there is no doubt you will should see better power from idle to redline. With just the cams, you should also get a little more punch through the midrange w/o sacrificing power else where. If you thin you feel a drop off, it is an easy thing to set the engine back to stock timing and go from there. The decompressors can be disabled easily with cams in the bike. I ususally cut the very end tip off a zip tie and wedge it into the weight so that it is stuck in the out position to disable the decompressor pin from contacting the bucket. You can test the compression as per service manual, but that does not give a full reading. I like to know what the real number is in many cases. I like doing leak down test personally, but a simple compression test does tell you whole bunch about engine health.

-MS


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post #13 of 53 (permalink) Old 20th December 2014, 11:23 AM
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1. You do have it right. There are 31 gear teeth on the chain side and 41 on the cam gear side. This creates 31 possible possible positions so there are lots of possibilities to choose from.

2. I would measure you exact machine. This would assure you you know what you have and what you are getting. I only see about 2 degrees variation between the motors I work on when they are all stone stock. Cam chain stretch, cylinder height, cam gear installation, and head thickness can all be factors. In general with a stock engine you won't be even close to worrying about piston to valve interference. These motor are very spacious and forgiving when stock. You can mill heads and cylinders to increase compression a fair bit and still have plenty of room before smashing bits into each other. It is always best to measure though. You can also measure piston to valve clearances by stacking adjustment shims. For example if you currently have a 3.00 shim installed and you are wanting a minimum of 1.0mm piston to valve clearance. Place a really thin shim on the valve like a 1.20mm, then put a 2.80 on top of it. The 1.20mm shim is thin enough that the second shim will still be captured and held in place by the recess in the valve spring retainer. Now the valve is at 1mm more lift for the whole cycle and the engine can be turned over slowly and checked for interference. Note that this can be used for a stock bike because the springs will not coil bind, but just mindful of this and also that if you are really close to hitting stuff, please take valve clearance into account.

3. Added compression is a really good thing for these motors. With added compression from milling the deck height down, milling the head down makes really nice mid range. I would recommend this to anybody. Setting the squish values down to 1mm or a bit less, and then milling the heads to set final compression ratio is a great way to go. With stock cams, and running pump gas you can still go more than 12:1, but that number will work fine.

4. With added compression and cam timing there is no doubt you will should see better power from idle to redline. With just the cams, you should also get a little more punch through the midrange w/o sacrificing power else where. If you thin you feel a drop off, it is an easy thing to set the engine back to stock timing and go from there. The decompressors can be disabled easily with cams in the bike. I ususally cut the very end tip off a zip tie and wedge it into the weight so that it is stuck in the out position to disable the decompressor pin from contacting the bucket. You can test the compression as per service manual, but that does not give a full reading. I like to know what the real number is in many cases. I like doing leak down test personally, but a simple compression test does tell you whole bunch about engine health.

-MS
That is superb info Mr S. Thank you very much. My riding experience with the SV is limited to one ride home (130 miles) in poor conditions so I think I should start by fixing the known problems (which now include on the handling side a leaking fork seal and a steering damper which can only be described as notchy). Clearly there are several options here but I'm going to start with a full chassis and suspension service including a rear shock rebuild and revalve and some linear springs for the front. Engine wise it makes sense, as you say, to know what I've got first. So having checked the flywheel magnets (perfect), valve clearances and cam chain tensioners which both advanced one click as per your thread, the next jobs are to check that primary drive nut, remove STV butterflies, check compression (your para 4 esp. helpful here), adjust TPS and sync throttle bodies. At this point I'll be inclined to take advantage of a local tuning shop which is offering free Saturday dyno runs and see what I've got to start with. Then I'll start the compression , squish setup and retiming as you suggest, measuring as I go.

MG
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post #14 of 53 (permalink) Old 30th November 2015, 02:31 PM
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Extreme newbie alert!!

Hi,

I've half-decided to proceed with this procedure, however I do have some questions to help me wrap my head around it!

1. There's tons of stuff on the internet about cam lobe centers and how to measure them, yes, but looking for measurement equipment all I can find is expensive stuff: e.g. Webcamshaft's Complete Cam Degreeing Kit
(Web Cam Inc. - Performance and Racing Camshafts / Web Cam Tools) at $275... aren't there any cheaper tools? What do I need to make the measurements and where do I get it from?

2. I doubt my SV1000S K3 has ever been opened to do a valve check, let alone have its camshafts and head bits upgraded... in other words I am 99.9999% sure its stock. Is it absolutely necessary to take the lobe center measurements or is it safe to just go ahead and advance the idler gears 1 tooth??

3. By "thrust adjuster lock ring" do you mean the "thrust adjuster lock nut" ??? (manual page 3-9)

4. Regarding the messing about the engine's thrust adjusters: are we essentially moving the engine out of place temporarily to facilitate the idler gear shaft removal process??

5. Final question regarding the idler gear shaft removal: doesn't the removal of the cam chain tensioners provide enough slack to the cam chain to lift it enough to advance the idler gear one tooth? Isn't the shaft what's holding the idle gear in place? If so, how do we prevent the idler gear from falling inside the crankcase after we remove its shaft??

Thanks so much!!

Andreas
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post #15 of 53 (permalink) Old 30th November 2015, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coz View Post
Extreme newbie alert!!

Hi,

I've half-decided to proceed with this procedure, however I do have some questions to help me wrap my head around it!

1. There's tons of stuff on the internet about cam lobe centers and how to measure them, yes, but looking for measurement equipment all I can find is expensive stuff: e.g. Webcamshaft's Complete Cam Degreeing Kit
(Web Cam Inc. - Performance and Racing Camshafts / Web Cam Tools) at $275... aren't there any cheaper tools? What do I need to make the measurements and where do I get it from?

2. I doubt my SV1000S K3 has ever been opened to do a valve check, let alone have its camshafts and head bits upgraded... in other words I am 99.9999% sure its stock. Is it absolutely necessary to take the lobe center measurements or is it safe to just go ahead and advance the idler gears 1 tooth??

3. By "thrust adjuster lock ring" do you mean the "thrust adjuster lock nut" ??? (manual page 3-9)

4. Regarding the messing about the engine's thrust adjusters: are we essentially moving the engine out of place temporarily to facilitate the idler gear shaft removal process??

5. Final question regarding the idler gear shaft removal: doesn't the removal of the cam chain tensioners provide enough slack to the cam chain to lift it enough to advance the idler gear one tooth? Isn't the shaft what's holding the idle gear in place? If so, how do we prevent the idler gear from falling inside the crankcase after we remove its shaft??

Thanks so much!!

Andreas

Hopefully the information below helps out

1. You need a degree wheel and a dial indicator, and a way to mount it to the engine. A 10mm TDC stop is also required but can be purchased cheap as individual pieces. Degree wheels can be had from auto stores easily and pretty cheap. Summit Perfomance has them for less than $30. Then I use a bit of welding rod to make a pointer to bolt up. The dial indicator needs to have a small enough tip to fit into the tight regions required to get it onto the valve bucket. I mount the dial indicator by bolting it to one of the cam cap mounting holes, a long bolt and couple of stand offs. Some people use magnetic bases and such, I like to bolt it right to the motor. See attached images

2. This is up to you. I would never make a change like you are saying without measuring. What if your bike measures different? You could be making it worse. What if the gears were off already and not assembled correctly at some point?

3. Yes

4. Kind of. You don't really move the motor. You just do it to flex the frame a tiny bit to allow the removal of the shaft. Absolute worse case senario is that you loosen all the engine mounting bolts so they are all slack, and then apply pressure with the thrust adjuster to get the engine to wiggle a bit too. I have always been able to do it with just the one adjuster alone though.

5. The tensioner removal will not be enough to move gear on chain. The gear will not fall into the engine. The casting of the head will keep it near by.

-MS
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File Type: jpg CamTiming4.JPG (285.9 KB, 64 views)
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cams, camshaft, center, lobe, timing

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