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Front brake issue

3K views 32 replies 8 participants last post by  tzk321 
#1 ·
The bike is a 2003 N version that I've had since new. It has about 45,000 miles on it.
I've been noticing that I now have to squeeze the front brake lever further before the brakes are activated. I have Chinese Pazzo levers. I used to have the lever in the 1st setting. If I had it there now and kept 2 fingers on the throttle while braking the lever would hit my fingers before I squeezed it as much as I want. I've since moved to the 2nd and now the 3rd setting on the lever.

In an effort to fix this I've rebuilt the calipers and the master cylinder. I used genuine Suzuki parts for both. I also replaced the brake lines with HEL lines. The only original parts are the pads and the rotors and they're both within spec.

Any suggestions?
 
#2 ·
The bike is a 2003 N version that I've had since new. It has about 45,000 miles on it.

I've been noticing that I now have to squeeze the front brake lever further before the brakes are activated. I have Chinese Pazzo levers. I used to have the lever in the 1st setting. If I had it there now and kept 2 fingers on the throttle while braking the lever would hit my fingers before I squeezed it as much as I want. I've since moved to the 2nd and now the 3rd setting on the lever.



In an effort to fix this I've rebuilt the calipers and the master cylinder. I used genuine Suzuki parts for both. I also replaced the brake lines with HEL lines. The only original parts are the pads and the rotors and they're both within spec.



Any suggestions?


I see all kinds of issues with cheap aftermarket levers... if you know for sure this is not the issue, sounds like air in the master. Possibly calipers too.

I am not questioning your ability to properly bleed the brakes but I end up fixing this issue multiple times per year after folks rebuild their brake systems or install new lines. Nearly every time it is either air in the master or air trapped in the lower brake piston chambers.

-ms
 
#3 ·
Actually I don't know for sure that the issue isn't the aftermarket levers. But I'm very confident this isn't an issue of air in the system. BTW, the problem seems to be getting worse with time. That is to say I have to change the setting on the lever so that it doesn't hit my fingers.

I've got a spare set of brake pads. I may try installing them just to see if it makes a difference. I can't imagine what else could be causing this.

BTW stopping power is fine and progressive. The only issue is how far I need to squeeze before stopping begins.

Anyway thanks for the reply.
 
#4 ·
Actually I don't know for sure that the issue isn't the aftermarket levers. But I'm very confident this isn't an issue of air in the system. BTW, the problem seems to be getting worse with time. That is to say I have to change the setting on the lever so that it doesn't hit my fingers.

I've got a spare set of brake pads. I may try installing them just to see if it makes a difference. I can't imagine what else could be causing this.

BTW stopping power is fine and progressive. The only issue is how far I need to squeeze before stopping begins.

Anyway thanks for the reply.

If you still have the stock levers, you could just swap out levers for a simple experiment to see if they are causing/contributing to the issue.
 
#5 ·
Actually I don't know for sure that the issue isn't the aftermarket levers. But I'm very confident this isn't an issue of air in the system. BTW, the problem seems to be getting worse with time. That is to say I have to change the setting on the lever so that it doesn't hit my fingers.



I've got a spare set of brake pads. I may try installing them just to see if it makes a difference. I can't imagine what else could be causing this.



BTW stopping power is fine and progressive. The only issue is how far I need to squeeze before stopping begins.



Anyway thanks for the reply.

Many owners have told me they were confident their systems were bled properly also...

I always go through a very specific sequence to bleed and it works every time. Just pumping at the lever will not get all the air out. I have to burp conventional type masters and do a special sequence of things at the caliper to assure all air is purged. If you started with a full rebuild and system dry, it is very difficult to get the last bits of air out.

Make sure one of your rotors has not tuned into a Belleville washer either or that that pads have not worn in a wedge.

-ms
 
#10 ·
Fast, easy brake and clutch flushing and bleeding

do all of my brakes with a bleeder kit that has a syringe with fitting for the bleeder. Suck most of the fluid from the reservoir. Fill the syringe with fresh fluid and put it on the bleeder. Air floats to the top of the syringe, of course. Crack the bleeder, inject the fluid with the syringe until the reservoir is at the right level.

So quick and easy, I actually do 8 brakes and two clutches every year in about 30mins with zero air problems. Not sure it works with ABS, though, due to check valves.
 
#12 ·
Interested to hear what you determine since my knock off pazzos had to originally be set at position 3 because there was some squish in the travel, but I figured that was due to old fluid turning to jelly or some air in the lines. Just finished rebuilding the calipers and master cyl, and bleeding according to schmidt314's instructions in his signature. I never thought I would see the day that I could confidently use the lever at the closest position.

Side note regarding levers, I did find out that there is a brass bushing required on the clutch lever. The PO of my bike didn't transfer it from the OEM one, and I didn't figure it out until I kept finding aluminum shavings on the plastics. The clutch mc plunger was grinding away at the inside of the lever. If you didn't install the aftermarket levers yourself, it is worth checking.
 
#13 ·
Here's the latest:
I brought my bike to the local Suzuki shop to have a pro mechanic take a look. His opinion is that there's nothing wrong with the brake. This is despite the fact that on the 3 closest lever settings the lever can touch the bar when squeezed.

Tonight I received an OEM lever. I was optimistic that this would solve the problem but it didn't. It's a shame the site won't accept mp4 files so you can all see.

Next step is to replace the entire cylinder assembly. If that still doesn't solve it I'll replace the hoses too. I have HEL stainless steel hoses installed but they're about 15 years old and might be contributing to the problem.
 
#14 ·
tzk321 I'm now having nearly the exact same problem as you. I went for a ~100 mile spirited ride today with the rebuilt brakes, and they felt better than ever at first, but by the end of the ride they were back to mush. Now my lever will touch the bar in the first three settings as well. Going to try bleeding the system again as a temp fix,but it seems like air is getting back in the system somewhere. I will update if I find anything.
 
#15 ·
Thanks, penguin. I'll do the same. In the meantime let's see if we have anything in common.

mileage: ~50,000 miles
speed bleeders on the calipers?: Yes
clutch issues?: None
aftermarket levers?: Chinese Pazzo knockoffs but I tried the OEM and it made no difference.
stainless steel brake hoses: HEL brand installed ~15 years ago.

Things tried so far:
flushed brake lines
rebuilt calipers
rebuilt master cylinder
replaced brake pads
checked to see that rotors are within spec

Tomorrow I plan to replace the whole cylinder assembly. I'll let you know if that helps.
 
#17 ·
Tzk here is my setup. Looks like the speed bleeders are one thing we have in common.

mileage: ~29,000 miles
speed bleeders on the calipers?: Yes
clutch issues?: None - replaced lever bushing and plunger
aftermarket levers?: Chinese Pazzo knockoffs
stainless steel brake hoses: CORE brand. Not sure when installed, probably long ago.

Things tried so far:
flushed brake lines
rebuilt calipers - used an All Balls Racing rebuild kit
rebuilt master cylinder - OEM rebuild kit
replaced brake pads - Galfer 1054 Semi metallic pads
checked to see that rotors are within spec- haven't checked but there is minimal rubbing when the brakes are not applied.
 
#21 ·
Thanks, Schmidt. I actually didn't use teflon as I found a tube of Permatex thread sealer at the car parts shop. It didn't make any difference in the feel of the lever. So tomorrow I'll try replacing the master assembly.
 
#22 ·
Got around to swapping the bleeders back to OEM and re-bleeding the brakes today. There is an improvement, however in the closest setting I can still bring the lever to the bar if I pull hard. To get the lever to bottom out it probably requires a harder pull than is reasonable when riding under most conditions, so I will have to take the bike out for a long test ride to also verify the brakes won't get mushy mid way through (again). There is definite improvement, but I don't think the brake lever feel is 100% back to how it was immediately after the rebuild.
 
#23 ·
#29 ·
Then I'll move onto replacing the master assembly.
Did you ever get around to swapping the master?

I just stripped, inspected and reassembled the entire system (again) and everything looked good. I replaced all the crush washers for good measure, and the lever is once again very firm like right after the first rebuild. Now to see how long it will last.

I noticed that the base of the bleeder threads were wet after the first ride, but as schmidt mentioned before it is likely (hopefully) trapped fluid in the threads making its way up.

Also, is it just me, or is the raised "TOKICO" lettering on the calipers perfectly located to shred knuckles when using a wrench to remove the caliper mount bolts?
 
#24 ·
I have another idea of what might be causing this problem:

Maybe 1 or more pistons is stuck to its seal. If the piston doesn't come out fully to follow the pad that would increase lever travel, right? I'm going to check.
 
#25 ·
I have another idea of what might be causing this problem:



Maybe 1 or more pistons is stuck to its seal. If the piston doesn't come out fully to follow the pad that would increase lever travel, right? I'm going to check.


I thought you said you rebuilt the calipers?

Absolutely yes it can cause lever issues, but should have been good after caliper rebuild.

-ms
 
#27 ·
Yes, I did rebuild the calipers. I was thinking that there might be a problem that the rebuild didn't solve.

I started having this problem before the rebuild. The reason I rebuilt them was to try to fix this. The problem started ~3 years ago and has gotten worse.
 
#28 ·
Went for another test ride after replacing the bleeder screws with similar results. Lever feel was good to start, but after hitting the twistys the feel started to get inconsistent and spongy. Same story, started the ride able to use the closest lever position, then needed to move to the 3rd by the end to prevent pulling the lever to the bar under moderate braking.

Not sure what else to do at this point to narrow down what the issue is.

Oldbaldsob, I think I'm having the same issue as tzk, and for reference the issue started after ~40 miles on the first ride after the rebuild. My brakes were pretty crap before, but adequate for street riding so I was able to live with them. The rebuild was in preparation for an upcoming track day.
 
#30 ·
I was planning to replace the master assembly today but now I think I'll wait until next weekend. I raised the front end to spin the tire and noticed that the right brake caliper is dragging a little bit. I think it's due to a mishap a couple of years ago: I forgot to remove the lock that was on the brake rotor. The rotor got bent so I replaced it and assumed that was the end of it.

Anyway, I'll replace the master and right caliper at the same time.

It's encouraging to hear that you've gotten your lever firm. Mine is getting worse. If I don't figure this out soon it'll be unsafe to ride. I think I now have the lever on position 5 (out of 6). Anything less and I can't safely do 2 finger braking as the lever hits my fingers.
 
#31 ·
I was optimistic that replacing either the master cylinder assembly or the right caliper would fix this but boy was I wrong. No change whatsoever. The only thing left is the stainless steel brake hoses which are 'supposed' to last forever. I'll be ordering new hoses shortly but I'm not sure when I'll do the install.
 
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