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Nice writeup, makes sense

Have you triede to run the fuel mapping after setting up the optimal ignition map, and if yes is there a big change in the fuel mapping?
This would rather quick if there is a correlation between fuel and ignition map
 

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KNEE DRAGGER
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Nice writeup, makes sense

Have you triede to run the fuel mapping after setting up the optimal ignition map, and if yes is there a big change in the fuel mapping?
This would rather quick if there is a correlation between fuel and ignition map
The data I do have does show that fuel and ignition timing are interacting with each other which is what I would expect. I have not run the series you mention.

In the actual DOE space I have run, I always put ignition timing into the mix right away. Leaving it out and doing later might not produce absolute peak results and can actually create even more work. The work here was done serially to prove that I could get a sold response from both variables independently prior to building a more complex data collection scheme.

I have not used this model much recently. It seems to work pretty well in the cases in which I have used it after this write up. The advent of auto tune stuff so easy to use now kind of kills some of this. But what my model will do is ignore AFR and just tune for best power. I don't care if the AFR reads 11.2 or 15.1 If it makes best power at a measured 13.7 then so be it.

I did this to just get my geek on mainly, but it has spurred some great conversations with several folk over the years.

Thanks for reading!
-MS
 

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Hi Mike. Just read your awesome writeup on predictive efi mapping. Do you have some timing map numbers you would like to share? Next time I hit the dyno I will do a run with woolich autotune mapping and one with predicted map.
Kristian.
 

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KNEE DRAGGER
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Hi Mike. Just read your awesome writeup on predictive efi mapping. Do you have some timing map numbers you would like to share? Next time I hit the dyno I will do a run with woolich autotune mapping and one with predicted map.

Kristian.


I don’t hand that data out.

Just note that at the higher throttle positions it likes several degrees of advance in the lower rpm, but as it goes up in rpm, you start to pull timing out, and actually subtract out a fair bit up on top.

Very sensitive to engine work though.

-ms
 

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Hi Mike.
I am going to hit the dyno tomorrow to see if my latest engine mods yields more bhp.
Mod list:
  • DL 100mm cylinders 1mm squish
  • Light ported heads
  • Pipercross air filter
  • 05 cams, TBs, snorkel, wiring, ECU
  • 106/108 cam timing
  • custom 2-1 exhaust
  • Pair cranckcase vacuum mod
  • STV removed

Bike is AFR autotuned with Woolich software. I use RecoilRobs Ignition map (thanks Rob) where low rpm is advanced and top retarded.
I will do a run with AFR tuned fuelmap and one with one with your predicted map (100% tp).
I am really torn where to leave top end timing. Right now its at 36 degrees (stock is 44) for 100% tp
 

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KNEE DRAGGER
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5,108 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Hi Mike.
I am going to hit the dyno tomorrow to see if my latest engine mods yields more bhp.
Mod list:
  • DL 100mm cylinders 1mm squish
  • Light ported heads
  • Pipercross air filter
  • 05 cams, TBs, snorkel, wiring, ECU
  • 106/108 cam timing
  • custom 2-1 exhaust
  • Pair cranckcase vacuum mod
  • STV removed

Bike is AFR autotuned with Woolich software. I use RecoilRobs Ignition map (thanks Rob) where low rpm is advanced and top retarded.
I will do a run with AFR tuned fuelmap and one with one with your predicted map (100% tp).
I am really torn where to leave top end timing. Right now its at 36 degrees (stock is 44) for 100% tp
With that engine config, I would not use that map. The engine it was developed on was very different from yours.

36 degrees might not be enough timing, but the dyno will let you know. On these bikes when the timing is set, 100% TP at high rpm, it won’t fall off near as fast post peak power.

Your config should run really hard and should make broad power across the range.

What kind of compression ratio are you running?

-ms
 

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With that engine config, I would not use that map. The engine it was developed on was very different from yours.

36 degrees might not be enough timing, but the dyno will let you know. On these bikes when the timing is set, 100% TP at high rpm, it won’t fall off near as fast post peak power.

Your config should run really hard and should make broad power across the range.

What kind of compression ratio are you running?

-ms
Ok, I will just run with the autotune AFR numbers then... mabye try with higher top end ignition timing (nearer to stock) to see difference. Static compression is 11.78:1
 

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KNEE DRAGGER
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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Ok, I will just run with the autotune AFR numbers then... mabye try with higher top end ignition timing (nearer to stock) to see difference. Static compression is 11.78:1
I am surprised you are not running a higher static compression ratio. That seems a bit low at 1mm squish.

Did you open up the combustion chamber volume a bit?
 

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I am surprised you are not running a higher static compression ratio. That seems a bit low at 1mm squish.

Did you open up the combustion chamber volume a bit?
No, combustion chamber is stock, i measured 33cc volume and piston volume 7,5cc = 11.72:1

You where right about top end timing, stock 44 degrees timing produced best performance.
Huge gains from my last last dyno run (lower blue) :)
Green 5800rpm-10k timing is 36 degrees
Blue 5800rpm-10k timing is 40 degrees
Red 5800rpm-10k timing is 44 degrees

Very happy with results


117386
 

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KNEE DRAGGER
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5,108 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
No, combustion chamber is stock, i measured 33cc volume and piston volume 7,5cc = 11.72:1

You where right about top end timing, stock 44 degrees timing produced best performance.
Huge gains from my last last dyno run (lower blue) :)
Green 5800rpm-10k timing is 36 degrees
Blue 5800rpm-10k timing is 40 degrees
Red 5800rpm-10k timing is 44 degrees

Very happy with results


View attachment 117386
That looks like a very happy engine! Do you have an image of the torque curve?
You could up the compression even more if you wanted it to pull a bit harder.

Great work!
-ms
 

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That looks like a very happy engine! Do you have an image of the torque curve?
You could up the compression even more if you wanted it to pull a bit harder.

Great work!
-ms
Thanks, and thanks for helping me with good info :)
No, but I will email dyno shop for a dyno sheet with torque curve
 

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That looks like a very happy engine! Do you have an image of the torque curve?
You could up the compression even more if you wanted it to pull a bit harder.

Great work!
-ms
What kind of hp gain could I expect if I bumped up the compression from 11.7 to 12.5?
The JE 317205 piston set has a volume of 2 cc which gives 13.1 : 1 at 1mm squish.
Can the JE piston dome be milled down to get 4 cc volume (12.5:1)? I want to be able to run the bike on pump gas
 

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KNEE DRAGGER
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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
What kind of hp gain could I expect if I bumped up the compression from 11.7 to 12.5?
The JE 317205 piston set has a volume of 2 cc which gives 13.1 : 1 at 1mm squish.
Can the JE piston dome be milled down to get 4 cc volume (12.5:1)? I want to be able to run the bike on pump gas
They can be cut a bit. You can go a bit higher than 12.5:1 but 12.5:1 would only give you a few HP up on top but beefs up the midrange big time!
-ms
 

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I emailed James from JHS racing about cams upgrade. He said their cams typically add 8bhp all the way up rpm scale. Looking at dyno sheets from other users with hot cams, it seems gains are most in the mid-top end. Is there any chance of loosing low end power by going cam upgrade?
I cant make up my mind if I want to sell my SV and keep my newly purchased 01 busa or sell busa and keep SV and beef up the motor. The busa is a nice and fast bike, SV feels ligther and much more easy in corners. They seem to have similar power under 5k rpm where i spend most of my time..
If I keep the SV i would properly go JE 13:1 pistons and cam upgrade and hopefully end in the 130ish bhp with even better low end power.
 

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I emailed James from JHS racing about cams upgrade. He said their cams typically add 8bhp all the way up rpm scale. Looking at dyno sheets from other users with hot cams, it seems gains are most in the mid-top end. Is there any chance of loosing low end power by going cam upgrade?
I cant make up my mind if I want to sell my SV and keep my newly purchased 01 busa or sell busa and keep SV and beef up the motor. The busa is a nice and fast bike, SV feels ligther and much more easy in corners. They seem to have similar power under 5k rpm where i spend most of my time..
If I keep the SV i would properly go JE 13:1 pistons and cam upgrade and hopefully end in the 130ish bhp with even better low end power.
Everyone is a little different but for me the twin just hits a little different from the i4, even if it's not as powerful. It would be neat to have an extra 40 horsepower, but realistically they would be called on very infrequently. I would prefer to have a snappy twin with lots of grunt in the center third of the tach. I'm too addicted to upshifts with the quick shifter to wait for redline.

While I am just starting to ride my lightly built motor I am very happy so far. As in rode it for the first time yesterday after reassembly to bed in the new rings.

Even using the stock exhaust system (so my assertive break in rides drew less attention) it feels much stronger right to the top end than before. Looking forward to swapping back to the 2-1 M4 and getting it dialed on a dyno to finish it off. While I only have half a tank of 91 burned so far, but it does seem to run hard and happy on the 91.

Swapping to the JE pistons in this process was relatively easy. The wrist pin clips are the hardest part, they are very tough compared to the stock ones and like to bounce off of the top of your head and disappear if your hand slips. If you end up doing it let me know and I can mail you a spare or two from the second set I ended up getting.... My recommendation is to use one of the stock ones initially to hold the wrist pin, and then lever the JE clip in with the wrist pin installed for it to back up against. Then pull the stock clip back out, install the piston and do the second JE clip.

Not sure how the difference of an aftermarket cam balances with other head upgrades, like 40mm valves. Down the road I would like to work these heads for the 40mm valves, or fill and re-port a set of TL heads, which is part of why I wanted the pistons with larger valve relief already installed. Also I wanted to refresh the rings and Suzuki wants enough for stock rings to pay for basically half of the JE piston set.

Looking forward to seeing and comparing what the curve looks like for this motor after it is tuned, since I think other than the compression bump it is similar to yours.
 

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Jumjum I don't know how the speed limits are in your country but in mine they are becoming more restrictive, so I would choose the lightest bike with the best low range, when you can take advantage of the high power you will already be very out of the law. I envy your work, I have very few hours to work on my motorcycle and I am very slow, but I progress little by little. Now I am focused on the adaptation of the TB Sv in my DL 06, and I have already started and tested it, it works!
 

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KNEE DRAGGER
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5,108 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
I emailed James from JHS racing about cams upgrade. He said their cams typically add 8bhp all the way up rpm scale. Looking at dyno sheets from other users with hot cams, it seems gains are most in the mid-top end. Is there any chance of loosing low end power by going cam upgrade?
I cant make up my mind if I want to sell my SV and keep my newly purchased 01 busa or sell busa and keep SV and beef up the motor. The busa is a nice and fast bike, SV feels ligther and much more easy in corners. They seem to have similar power under 5k rpm where i spend most of my time..
If I keep the SV i would properly go JE 13:1 pistons and cam upgrade and hopefully end in the 130ish bhp with even better low end power.
If you go too much cam without enough compression it will run sluggish until the bike build more engine speed.
-ms
 
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