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SV/DL 1000 : Retarding ignition timing gives me mental madness

2154 Views 45 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  estevns
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Hi everybody

I m french, sorry for my poor english.

i have DL 1000 K7 with 60 ke milles that runs badly : performance like a 650, vibration, feeling running lean, high consumption

I have done all the checks with se service manuel. I have already changed many parts, and recently compl猫te engine for K9 with complete body throttle et ingniton coil (26 k milles) .. and no change馃が馃サ馃槨

There is black soot on spark plugs.

Compression test on new engine (2009) :
*Front : 190 Psi
*Rear : 180 Psi


But when i check it with my OBD SZ Viewer tools, i have -30,5 BTDC at idle :




When i see on the net, i found diagnotic of good DL 1000 K7 with "Healtech OBD" that say 7-8掳 BTDC at idle




-> The service manual told me it should be 5掳 degr茅 at 1200 rpm ( And 4掳 for the SV)

Which motorcycle is wrong ?
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This is a job for schmidt314 mabe.. he has a lot of engine build knowledge.

Have you joined Stromtrooper.com ? That is a dedicated V-Strom owners forum. That may help you with DL specific issues as well.
Hi everybody

I m french, sorry for my poor english.

i have DL 1000 K7 with 60 ke milles that runs badly : performance like a 650, vibration, feeling running lean, high consumption

I have done all the checks with se service manuel. I have already changed many parts, and recently compl猫te engine for K9 with complete body throttle et ingniton coil (26 k milles) .. and no change

There is black soot on spark plugs.

Compression test on new engine (2009) :
*Front : 190 Psi
*Rear : 180 Psi


But when i check it with my OBD SZ Viewer tools, i have -30,5 BTDC at idle :




When i see on the net, i found diagnotic of good DL 1000 K7 with "Healtech OBD" that say 7-8掳 BTDC at idle




-> The service manual told me it should be 5掳 degr茅 at 1200 rpm ( And 4掳 for the SV)

Which motorcycle is wrong ?
30.5 timing at idle is way too much at idle. I might even question if that is being measured correctly.

If you swapped out engines and still having issues, I would be looking at what did not change.

Fuel pressure?
Fuel flow?
Injector issues?
ECU?

-ms
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Out of interest where does the value on your print-out come from?
Is it an actual value where the coil is firing or is it from the ECU and hence the value which the management system is intending to fire?

If it is the figure which the system has decided to fire the ignitoin then the issue must lie within the ECU, if it is the engine position where the ignition is occuring then it could be the crank position sensor hardware which triggers it (generator rotor) or someother piece of hardware which is at fault. I'm assuming given the name of the tool that it is querying the ECU via OBD?
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...........within the ECU,...............
If the engine has ben swapped, K7 to K9, then maybe the ECU is different on each year ?
Or is the donor engine from a different market, where the ECU mapping is different.
Does France still have a horsepower limit in place with the bikes sold there?

Is that enough to throw the cat in amongst the pidgeons ?
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30.5 timing at idle is way too much at idle. I might even question if that is being measured correctly.

If you swapped out engines and still having issues, I would be looking at what did not change.

Fuel pressure?
Fuel flow?
Injector issues?
ECU?

-ms
Yes, that sounds crazy.
The fuel pump was bypassed in accordance with the thread on the forum. I have a pressure according to the repair manual. The injectors have also been changed.
Out of interest where does the value on your print-out come from?
Is it an actual value where the coil is firing or is it from the ECU and hence the value which the management system is intending to fire?

If it is the figure which the system has decided to fire the ignitoin then the issue must lie within the ECU, if it is the engine position where the ignition is occuring then it could be the crank position sensor hardware which triggers it (generator rotor) or someother piece of hardware which is at fault. I'm assuming given the name of the tool that it is querying the ECU via OBD?
Out of interest where does the value on your print-out come from?
Is it an actual value where the coil is firing or is it from the ECU and hence the value which the management system is intending to fire?

If it is the figure which the system has decided to fire the ignitoin then the issue must lie within the ECU, if it is the engine position where the ignition is occuring then it could be the crank position sensor hardware which triggers it (generator rotor) or someother piece of hardware which is at fault. I'm assuming given the name of the tool that it is querying the ECU via OBD?
the value is taken by the diagnostic socket from an ELM box (K-line protocol). So I think this value comes from the ECU

I don't think the ECU is bad, as my idle is perfectly stable? Maybe I'm wrong. In France it is very difficult to find an equivalent motorcycle to test another ECM. Or a used ECM

This is the hardest diagnosis I've ever seen
If the engine has ben swapped, K7 to K9, then maybe the ECU is different on each year ?
Or is the donor engine from a different market, where the ECU mapping is different.
Does France still have a horsepower limit in place with the bikes sold there?

Is that enough to throw the cat in amongst the pidgeons ?
In France, the engine was limited to 106 CV maximum and the VSTROM has 98 CV, therefore under legal restriction
the value is taken by the diagnostic socket from an ELM box (K-line protocol). So I think this value comes from the ECU

I don't think the ECU is bad, as my idle is perfectly stable? Maybe I'm wrong. In France it is very difficult to find an equivalent motorcycle to test another ECM. Or a used ECM

This is the hardest diagnosis I've ever seen
That's what I thought, in which case this is what the system is calculating (and presumably is what is physically happening) so why would it do this? Seems like it could be a problem with the ECU causing a bad calculation but I think that is unlikely (although I've been surprised before!) I'd expect it to either work or not. So why would it calculate a value which is unsuitable? My thoughts are.
A sensor is giving a bad reading - RPM & MAP look OK but I notice that the throttle reading is just over 22%, presumably you are idling with the throttle closed so that is a bit surprising, may or may not be a problem.
Code inside the ECU responsible for the calculatoin had been changed

Also worth considering that your reader may not be interpreting the value correctly.


Does the reading change if you operate the clutch, put it in gear or open the throttle?
Are there any error codes present?
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That's what I thought, in which case this is what the system is calculating (and presumably is what is physically happening) so why would it do this? Seems like it could be a problem with the ECU causing a bad calculation but I think that is unlikely (although I've been surprised before!) I'd expect it to either work or not. So why would it calculate a value which is unsuitable? My thoughts are.
A sensor is giving a bad reading - RPM & MAP look OK but I notice that the throttle reading is just over 22%, presumably you are idling with the throttle closed so that is a bit surprising, may or may not be a problem.
Code inside the ECU responsible for the calculatoin had been changed

Also worth considering that your reader may not be interpreting the value correctly.

Does the reading change if you operate the clutch, put it in gear or open the throttle?
Are there any error codes present?

That's quite right !! but I have been looking for months which or where there is an interference

My TPS is adjusted with the stroke above 2000 RPM

nothing happens when I gear up except that the diag sees it mentioning "CLUCH=1"

Here is a video I made with the same application but emulated for windows

That's quite right !! but I have been looking for months which or where there is an interference

My TPS is adjusted with the stroke above 2000 RPM

nothing happens when I gear up except that the diag sees it mentioning "CLUCH=1"

Here is a video I made with the same application but emulated for windows

It's difficult to tell if the TPS figure is correct or not without knowing what the software is telling us. For instance I have a simiar piece of software and it gives 2 figures for TPS one is an absolute figure the other filtered or rationalised (I can't remember the terminaoldy and don't ahve the software on this computer), basically the sensor gives a voltage output (between 0-5v) rising with rotation of the throttle shaft this would resolve into the 0-100% but in reality the figure never goes to 0v with throttle closed or 5v at WoT so the software takes a reading at closed throttle a second at WoT and this allows it to give an accurate %age reading. I hope that makes sense, I realise English is not your first language.
In the case of your software it may only be giving the raw reading, so a value above zero may be correct although a value as high as 20+ seems high.
Did you put the bike in dealer mode and check the TPS adjustment and any other EMS errors?


I guess the question here is "Is the timing figure correct/incorrect?"
I know you have a definite problem and some thing which seems to point to the cause but I don't think this has proven cause and effect just yet.
I do see that when you increase the RPM (and to a certain degree the load) the figure does change which indicates the system is doing 'something' which I'd say is good although, stragely (maybe) the figure seems to lose the negative sign at some points which would indicate firing after TDC presumably, maybe this is due to your software failing to "keep up", without knowing the software it's difficult to tell.
That really is the problem, there are too many unknowns here, we don't know what good looks like with this software.
Ideally you would put the software on another (known good) bike to compare the behaviour and get a better understanding of what the software is telling you. Even running it on a different model of bike may tell you something.
Failing that it would be useful if someone else could run the same software and show you the results. Do you know anyone else who uses it or is there any comparison video on line?

Do you know if the timing calculated by the EMS is being reproduced physically. Bear in mind the EMS only knows what it is told. If the sensors 'tell' the system it is at position which corresponds to the calculcate ignition timing value it will fire that plug, BUT if a sensor (E.G. crank positoion sensor) was out of position (Sensor or trigger wheel relationship changed) this would result in the actual timing being incorrect.
On a car engine (which I'm more familiar with) I'd simply put a strobe light onto the crank pully and check what is actually happening (Having first checked my timing marks against piston position), this takes the EMS and monitoring softwar out of the picture.
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Did you put the bike in dealer mode and check the TPS adjustment and any other EMS errors?
Yes there is no DTC

Thanks very much for your help, Yes I am French, and I see that there is a very good level here compared to the French forums. On the other hand here in France, the SV/DL 1000 sold very little

The software is free and the box is a standard ELM327 at $10 on Amazon

I will try to search strobe light to check

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Hi Toto
That's interesting, I have one of those boxes around somewhere, I'll see if I can find it and if it will talk to the bike and the software, if so I'll let you know what mine looks like, will be mid-week at least though as I have to find the box and my bike is not quite running at the moment. I'll buy another ELM327 if I can't find mine or it doesn't work.

Just had a look, seems that app is only available on Android, I have Apple phone. Not a dead loss though, I have an Android tablet it may work with and it looks like it can also be used on Windows. I'll keep you posted on how I get on.
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That's quite right !! but I have been looking for months which or where there is an interference

My TPS is adjusted with the stroke above 2000 RPM

nothing happens when I gear up except that the diag sees it mentioning "CLUCH=1"

Here is a video I made with the same application but emulated for windows


You say the TPS is adjusted for 2000rpm ?

On the SV, 1400 is the ideal spot for the -C00 line to be, and for it to move to the top at around1750......may be a slightly better transition point on the DL, but
if you have set the centrelilne at 2000, then you will not be introducing a richer fuel mix until nearly 2500....


Just a thought
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You say the TPS is adjusted for 2000rpm ?

On the SV, 1400 is the ideal spot for the -C00 line to be, and for it to move to the top at around1750......may be a slightly better transition point on the DL, but
if you have set the centrelilne at 2000, then you will not be introducing a richer fuel mix until nearly 2500....


Just a thought

I misspoke. I set the top bar correctly so that it appears at 2000 rpm (idle at 1350)
I've managed to find my ELM devices and get SZ Viewer loaded onto my tablet. I'll try and plug it into the bike tomorrow (need to sort the wiring) and, if I remember to get some petrol I can hopefully test it (if the ELM devices I have are compatible - If not I'll get something on order).
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Hi @toto13
Bit of an update. I managed to get SZ Viewer working after a bit of a false start and have some data. Don't know how meaningful this will be as I'venot been able to spend too much time with it so far but at least you know progress is being made.

I have two ELM modules, tried wiring them up and got no joy, first one just didn't give any lights (has 4 LEDs on box similar to yours) second one made a popping noise and gave off a bit of smoke! Then I realised that in my haste I'd got your wiring diagram wrong and had the image of the bike's connector upside down. Doh!

Obviously one module is now fit for the bin and thinking I may have totalled the other I tried it in my car, I got it connected to my tablet (eventually) and even got some data from the car (Mecedes not Suzuki) into SZ Viewer which was quite good.

I then went back to the bike and very carefully made the connections again and this time it worked.

It did indicate that my ELM module was a "fake" (which I'm not surprised by) and may have limited functionality, I've no way of knowing if this is the case, I also don't know if all these cheap units are fakes and how you know if you're getting an non-fake.

This is the best screen grab I could get, had to take a photo of the table screen with my phone, don't recall how to screen grab directly on the tablet.
Tablet computer Communication Device Gadget Gesture Font


First thing I can see which is "Interesting" is my throttle reading is exactly the same as your first reading at 22.353% (I see the one in your video was slightly lower) don't know how that is possible.
My timing figures are possibly higher than expected at around -21掳 but not as high as yours, my bike is running a TRE via a gear position indicator but I don't think that affects neutral, I didn't get around to putting the bike in gear.

My STPS is slightly larger than yours but not massively and could just be conditions.

As you can see from the other readings my bike was fairly cold during the test which probably/hopefully accounts for my higher fuel duration and lambda reading - Hope so!

Clutch shows 4 when engaged, changes to 20 when I pull the lever.

Don't know why my screen format differs from yours, may be down to the verison of Android being used, mine looks similar to your video image, don't know why yours had Min/Max data and whether that indicates an expected range of values or the min and max reading monitored.

Unfortunately my bike is still in a few pieces as I've been servicing and making a few mod's, much as I like the smell of burning hydrocarbons it was getting a bit overpowering in my garage so I had to shut it down! I also didn't like the way the bike was running, idle was low and it didn't sound too happy, I've just modified the fuel system to an external filter, hope I didn't get anythign wrong there or forget to connect anything up although I presume I'd be seing a DTC if that was the case.

If the weather plays ball I'll get it out on to my drive tomorrow and test again getting it fully warmed up this time and spend some more time with the software.
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Hi @toto13
Bit of an update. I managed to get SZ Viewer working after a bit of a false start and have some data. Don't know how meaningful this will be as I'venot been able to spend too much time with it so far but at least you know progress is being made.

I have two ELM modules, tried wiring them up and got no joy, first one just didn't give any lights (has 4 LEDs on box similar to yours) second one made a popping noise and gave off a bit of smoke! Then I realised that in my haste I'd got your wiring diagram wrong and had the image of the bike's connector upside down. Doh!

Obviously one module is now fit for the bin and thinking I may have totalled the other I tried it in my car, I got it connected to my tablet (eventually) and even got some data from the car (Mecedes not Suzuki) into SZ Viewer which was quite good.

I then went back to the bike and very carefully made the connections again and this time it worked.

It did indicate that my ELM module was a "fake" (which I'm not surprised by) and may have limited functionality, I've no way of knowing if this is the case, I also don't know if all these cheap units are fakes and how you know if you're getting an non-fake.

This is the best screen grab I could get, had to take a photo of the table screen with my phone, don't recall how to screen grab directly on the tablet.

First thing I can see which is "Interesting" is my throttle reading is exactly the same as your first reading at 22.353% (I see the one in your video was slightly lower) don't know how that is possible.
My timing figures are possibly higher than expected at around -21掳 but not as high as yours, my bike is running a TRE via a gear position indicator but I don't think that affects neutral, I didn't get around to putting the bike in gear.

My STPS is slightly larger than yours but not massively and could just be conditions.

As you can see from the other readings my bike was fairly cold during the test which probably/hopefully accounts for my higher fuel duration and lambda reading - Hope so!

Clutch shows 4 when engaged, changes to 20 when I pull the lever.

Don't know why my screen format differs from yours, may be down to the verison of Android being used, mine looks similar to your video image, don't know why yours had Min/Max data and whether that indicates an expected range of values or the min and max reading monitored.

Unfortunately my bike is still in a few pieces as I've been servicing and making a few mod's, much as I like the smell of burning hydrocarbons it was getting a bit overpowering in my garage so I had to shut it down! I also didn't like the way the bike was running, idle was low and it didn't sound too happy, I've just modified the fuel system to an external filter, hope I didn't get anythign wrong there or forget to connect anything up although I presume I'd be seing a DTC if that was the case.

If the weather plays ball I'll get it out on to my drive tomorrow and test again getting it fully warmed up this time and spend some more time with the software.
Hi,
Many thanks !

I'm surprised that the SZ VIEWER worked on Mercedes, it's supposed to be a protocol for Suzuki only

I'm very surprised at the level of your idle .. 780 rpm ??

For the TPS, we are both within the standard of the workshop manual, 22% is equivalent 1.10-1.14 V

On the other hand, your consumption seems high to me at idle: 1.5 Ms..o_O . it is perhaps the TRE which also influences the injection advance

Indeed, there is no fault code. The graphics are different depending on the version of Android

This is all very interesting

What year is your SV 1K?
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Hi,
Many thanks !

I'm surprised that the SZ VIEWER worked on Mercedes, it's supposed to be a protocol for Suzuki only

Must admit I was surprised by that too, I'm sure there was not much data there but it did communicate and what was there seemed viable, although I've not looked in detail this was more of a test that the ELM module was still working after my faux pas with the wiring!



I'm very surprised at the level of your idle .. 780 rpm ??
Me too, the bike was running slow but the reading on the bike's tacho was higher than that, I am a bit worried that something may not have gone back together correctly since my changes to the fuel system, need to check all that but also anxious to see what happens when the bike gets fully warm.


For the TPS, we are both within the standard of the workshop manual, 22% is equivalent 1.10-1.14 V
Aye, but amazing that we both saw the same reading down to 3 decimal places. Where did you get that manual data by the way?

On the other hand, your consumption seems high to me at idle: 1.5 Ms..o_O .
Possibly, the exhaust did small rich but as I said it was in my garage and running from cold so would smell a bit. What sort of value do you get when yours is still cold?


...it is perhaps the TRE which also influences the injection advance
I don't think the TRE should affect the ignition on time, my understanding is that this should be ignition only, I also think that a different map is used when the bike is in neutral, from what I read in the instructions for my TRE the signal for neutral simply passes straight through it is the signals for the lower gears which are "tweaked" to fool the ECU into thinking its in a higher gear.

Indeed, there is no fault code. The graphics are different depending on the version of Android
There were some fault codes when I first started the system but they were listed as historical (some at least may have been if I switched on while I had some of the airbox sensors disconnected recently) I cleared them and none came back.
I suspected the graphics was due to the Android versions but I'm a little surprised that I don't see the Min/Max listings particularly as I have plenty of space on the table screen, maybe there is a setting for this or maybe my tablet is just too old.


What year is your SV 1K?
It is a late 2005 model so is the later style with black frame, Aluminium subframe which I believe has a more capable ECU (32bit instead of 16) it has 2 map sensors on the airbox.


I'm looking to see if I can get the corresponding plug for the diagnostic socket and one for the ODBII so that I can make a proper cable for this, my current setup is a bit "Heath Robinson".
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