hi @toto13, out of interest where did you get the part number for the bikes connector and is this for the connector on the bike or the part needed to connect to it?
SV/DL 1000 : Retarding ignition timing gives me mental madness
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I found a screenshot on an SV 650 K7 :
it confirms that the negative value of ignition advance is not a problem
For TPS sensor, in found that in manuel repair of SV 1000 : 1,2 v at throttle closed
When cold, my injection times are never greater than 1200/1300 ms. That's why I'm surprised at your values. You must have a significant consumption!
For our motorcycles with 3 pin cable :
Yeah, I was going to mention when I first looked at the screen just after starting the engine I noticed that the value was only about -16 but when I took the photo had changed to -20/21, I suspect this is adjusting as the engine warms.
My consumption was not bad when I last ran the bike, hopefully will not have changed as a result of my fuel system mod's but bear in mind my bike is not up to temperature in my screengrab and my injector pulse is not that far from yours, like I say I need to get the bike up to temperature before I make any judgement, I could only run it for a few min's yeseterday.
At least this seems to answer your question regarding the issue with ignition timing and you have introduced me to this application for which I thank you very much.
hi @toto13 and anyone else interested.
I managed to do a more thorough test this evening, slightly mixed results though, bottom line is I'm not confident in the data I'm seeing. This could be due to my ELM module, my bike's ECU or the software but in short these issues may be my problem only or general.
This photo is before staring the bike.
![Font Astronomical object Electronic device Display device Technology]()
Throttle value is simlar to yours, Abs.pressure is presumably the reading from one of the MAP sensors hence showing the pressure in the inlet tract, with engine off this is correctly around 100kPa. However this is outdoors in the UK in January, bike has been in the garage all day (not started since yesterday) but that's not heated so the engine temp and intake temp of around 20°C is not correct, would expect 6-7 so something is off there.
![Computer Personal computer Gadget Font Computer hardware]()
Still with the engine off but holding the throttle to WoT, note max reading is just over 86%. I'm assuming this is normal and telling me I'm at 86% of the 0-5v range, would be 4.31v which is in accordance with the figures from the manual.
![Automotive lighting Gauge Entertainment Gadget Font]()
This is a short while later, engine is still cold as can be seen on the bike's display but check out the RPM on the bike's tach compared to the reading in SZ, it's about double. I've no other way of measuring the actual RPM but based on the sound and the fact I'm familiar with my bike's tach I'd say that is the true reading, I certainly don't think it's reading out be a factor of 2.
Note also the ignition values at -14
![Cloud Computer Sky Personal computer Automotive lighting]()
Slightly later still. Bike warming up note temp reading of 57°C but SZ reading of 98, RPM has dropped but SZ still reading about half of bike's. Note timing value now at -29, seems to be indicating higher advance as temperature rising.
![Hood Speedometer Automotive lighting Vehicle Gauge]()
In gear now, GIPro showing 1st (which is correct) SZ showing 6, this is indicating that the TRE is working, it has picked up the correct gear value from the selector switch but forwarded on a false value so ECU will use timing curve without limitation. All other gears show 6 in SZ - Good.
![Gadget Automotive lighting Laptop Personal computer Computer]()
Temp in SZ now showing 122°C, dash showing only 72, bike eventually got up to 86 at which point SZ was showing around 145.
In short some of these values are definitely not correct, I'm fairly confident in the tach reading and I know the bike's temp' reading is correct withing fine limits so some data value are untrustworthy which leads me to mis-trust all of them.
The TPS readings check out both for closed and wide open throttle so I'll accept them.
Temperaturs and RPM seem to be out by a factor of around 2, I'd say probably not quite as simple as that as it's more like 1.8.
All the Fuel-1/2 readings look wrong based on others we've seen, again by about a factor of 2, I don't think the bike is running that rich.
Gear position is working well with TRE fitted, I'd like to try it without but don't really want to mess with my wiring and can't see why it would be out anyhow.
Wish I knew what the lambda or Intake air pressure-2 readings meant, maybe I'll find out eventually.
What about the Ignition values which started this thread?
On the plus side my figures agree with Toto's which would indicate that this does not indicate a problem but what I find strange is that when the throttle is blipped the timing value rises (bear in mind we are staring negative) and actually go past zero, I saw value of at least +9, don't understand why that would happen, seems strange to be firing the ignition after TDC.
I think I may try looking for an alternative ELM module and see if I get better results.
I managed to do a more thorough test this evening, slightly mixed results though, bottom line is I'm not confident in the data I'm seeing. This could be due to my ELM module, my bike's ECU or the software but in short these issues may be my problem only or general.
This photo is before staring the bike.
Throttle value is simlar to yours, Abs.pressure is presumably the reading from one of the MAP sensors hence showing the pressure in the inlet tract, with engine off this is correctly around 100kPa. However this is outdoors in the UK in January, bike has been in the garage all day (not started since yesterday) but that's not heated so the engine temp and intake temp of around 20°C is not correct, would expect 6-7 so something is off there.
Still with the engine off but holding the throttle to WoT, note max reading is just over 86%. I'm assuming this is normal and telling me I'm at 86% of the 0-5v range, would be 4.31v which is in accordance with the figures from the manual.
This is a short while later, engine is still cold as can be seen on the bike's display but check out the RPM on the bike's tach compared to the reading in SZ, it's about double. I've no other way of measuring the actual RPM but based on the sound and the fact I'm familiar with my bike's tach I'd say that is the true reading, I certainly don't think it's reading out be a factor of 2.
Note also the ignition values at -14
Slightly later still. Bike warming up note temp reading of 57°C but SZ reading of 98, RPM has dropped but SZ still reading about half of bike's. Note timing value now at -29, seems to be indicating higher advance as temperature rising.
In gear now, GIPro showing 1st (which is correct) SZ showing 6, this is indicating that the TRE is working, it has picked up the correct gear value from the selector switch but forwarded on a false value so ECU will use timing curve without limitation. All other gears show 6 in SZ - Good.
Temp in SZ now showing 122°C, dash showing only 72, bike eventually got up to 86 at which point SZ was showing around 145.
In short some of these values are definitely not correct, I'm fairly confident in the tach reading and I know the bike's temp' reading is correct withing fine limits so some data value are untrustworthy which leads me to mis-trust all of them.
The TPS readings check out both for closed and wide open throttle so I'll accept them.
Temperaturs and RPM seem to be out by a factor of around 2, I'd say probably not quite as simple as that as it's more like 1.8.
All the Fuel-1/2 readings look wrong based on others we've seen, again by about a factor of 2, I don't think the bike is running that rich.
Gear position is working well with TRE fitted, I'd like to try it without but don't really want to mess with my wiring and can't see why it would be out anyhow.
Wish I knew what the lambda or Intake air pressure-2 readings meant, maybe I'll find out eventually.
What about the Ignition values which started this thread?
On the plus side my figures agree with Toto's which would indicate that this does not indicate a problem but what I find strange is that when the throttle is blipped the timing value rises (bear in mind we are staring negative) and actually go past zero, I saw value of at least +9, don't understand why that would happen, seems strange to be firing the ignition after TDC.
I think I may try looking for an alternative ELM module and see if I get better results.
I wold be a bit suspicious of those readings if your bike was showing 780 rpm on the diagnostic. Damn thing would sound like an old steam engine firing every 2 seconds. chuff chuff....
And that SV650 screenshot makes me concerned for its charging system...... 12.5v battery ? and its running. minimum should be 13.1v and that is borderline.....so maybe its a little of too...
And that SV650 screenshot makes me concerned for its charging system...... 12.5v battery ? and its running. minimum should be 13.1v and that is borderline.....so maybe its a little of too...
Well spotted, I meant to mention that earlier, that's low even for the battery. Hope that's just a bad reading on the diagnostic.
The SZ Viewer seems like a nice piece of software, I like to have a system which I can query the ECUs of vehicles I own, but I'm struggling to trust it at the moment. As mentioned earlier it could be something related to my system rather than with the software.
Indeed, there is a real interpretation problem with your device GDCobra . For my part, the idle is partly consistent with what I have on the speedometer,
just like my engine temperature which is exactly like my thermometer
My water temperature is 106° maximum until the fan starts = the data is perfect
Regarding the intake pressure, you should be at - 70 kpa (Given repair manual) which corresponds to the vacuum created in the body trottle.
The other pressure sensor corresponds to altitude, i.e. 101 kpa is equivalent to sea level.
just like my engine temperature which is exactly like my thermometer
My water temperature is 106° maximum until the fan starts = the data is perfect
Regarding the intake pressure, you should be at - 70 kpa (Given repair manual) which corresponds to the vacuum created in the body trottle.
The other pressure sensor corresponds to altitude, i.e. 101 kpa is equivalent to sea level.
Obviously there are a number of parts involved in this and if they don't all work correclty and in unison the result can be incorrect.
It could be my ELM module, or the tablet which is quite old and, althogh it's up to date, may not take the latest Android versions and hence the latest SZ software.
I was thinking about it last night and I know that my bike tach is reliable as I made up a TB balancer which monitored the vacuum and could work out the time betweeen each pulse, I put a calculation into this to work out RPM and it agreed with the tach.
My readings are not massively different to this so may still be within the tolerance, this will change with throttle position and airflow and possibly other variables, my reading is showing a lower pressure (more vacuum) which I'd think is a good thing.
Ah, that's interesting. I know that there are 2 sensors attached to my airbox but I thought these went to each throttle body, could have sworn I'd traced the pipes back to there. I also thought this was one of the differences/improvements over the earlier bikes. Perhaps there is a third sensor for ambient pressure?
Also strange that my reading is moving around a lot, in the pictures I've attached you can see it reads anywhere between 99-166 while the engine is running and 187 when it was stopped!
I'd have thought that with the bike static and at sea level (I'm not far above that at home) this would be constant. the first picture shows a value of 100.939 for Abs.pressure with the engine stopped, this is correct for ambient atmospheric at my altitude. It's a bit worrying that this value is changing, if the the ECU is seing this signal varying I would expect this will have an effect on the fuelling.
I've just done a Google search and found a thread (on this forum) which describes the ambient pressure sensor as being located under the seat, does anyone have an exact locatoin for this and/or photo of what it looks like?
Looked a bit deeper into the air pressure sensors in the service manuals
Early FI wiring diagram (Presumably Pre-2006)
![Rectangle Schematic Font Circuit component Parallel]()
Note a single Intake Air Pressure sensor and an Atmospheric Pressure Sensor
Similar diagram for that later models.
![Rectangle Font Schematic Parallel Map]()
Now we have 2 Intake Air Pressure sensors (front & rear) and no longer have the Atmospheric one.
Looks like I wasn't going crazy remembering my sensors were piped to the TBs but makes me wonder how I can be getting a reading in the SZ Viewer. Looks like it could be my ECU which is not compatible with SZ Viewer.
Early FI wiring diagram (Presumably Pre-2006)
Note a single Intake Air Pressure sensor and an Atmospheric Pressure Sensor
Similar diagram for that later models.
Now we have 2 Intake Air Pressure sensors (front & rear) and no longer have the Atmospheric one.
Looks like I wasn't going crazy remembering my sensors were piped to the TBs but makes me wonder how I can be getting a reading in the SZ Viewer. Looks like it could be my ECU which is not compatible with SZ Viewer.
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136 Posts
I got inspired and bought a cheap ELM327 and adaptor wiring. At the moment I do not have use for it, but at some point it might come in handy. Didnt know about this at all, only the error codes which can be showed in dealer mode.
I would be too scaed to plug one into mine....at its age it would probably act like an Apple watch and send out a "oh shit" message to emergency services.....
There are two versions of ECM on the SVs. From 2003 to 2005, and from 2005. Also on my DL K1 it's a Mitsubishi ECM, and on yours it's a DENSO ELECTRONIC
to my knowledge, there are not two AIP (Air Intake Pressure) on the two versions of SV.
SZ Viewer should be compatible with all Suzuki ECMs. I think there is a problem with your ELM, and not your version of android
SZ Viewer (for Android, Windows, Linux, macOS)
SZ Viewer (for Android, Windows, Linux, macOS)
malykh.com
I would be curious to have a screenshot of your diagnosis
Yeah, I'm aware that the ECUs changed, I believe the later one is 32bit as opposed to 16 so presumably a more capable & modern (for 2006) unit.
I also did a bit of digging on the OBD protocols. Suzuki were using K-Line in those days and it seems there was a change in this protocol around 2004, it's possible that when they upgraded the ECU they switched protocols.
I'm not sure if I'm reading that correctly but I can confirm that there are 2 MAP sensors on my bike (both fixed to the airbox) each is piped to the area of the throttle body after the butterfly so they are manifold sensors not ambient pressure sensors I also don't see an additional sensor for ambient so pretty sure there isn't on which is consistent with the later diagram.
I suspect you are probably correct, I was going to test on an alternative android unit as I thought I could get hold of a fairly recent phone but that has not worked out yet.
I've also been doing some digging on SZ viewer and have seen that with the Windows version it is possible to view the raw (hexadacimal) data streaming from the ECU, I may be able to make some sense of that but not managed to get around to setting up on my laptop and getting it into the garage (still a bit cold here), possibly have a go this weekend.
I will invest in a new ELM soon but it just seems a bit hit and miss whether you get a good one. I also bought a female OBDII socket on a pigtail and I'm looking for the Sumitomo socket for the diagnostic connection so I can make up a proper cable, make it a bit easier to plug and play.
I would be curious to have a screenshot of your diagnosis
It would be interesting to see some more examples of input values, be interesting (to me) to see if I'm the only one seing erroneous readings.
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136 Posts
I'm currently waiting on bearings, bushings, seals, and oil. Should show up in the mail middle of next week. Which would mean I'm heading to the workshop next weekend. Then I'll give you some feedback on readings.
That looks interesting. Unfortunately I'm going to be out of the loop on this for a good few weeks now. Went out for a cycle ride last Friday, came of the bike and smashed my pelvis I I'm going to be in hospital for at least the next 5 weeks and probably not weight bearing even after that. I'll look forward to updates on this project thuogh
You do realise, MOTORcycles are better for your health.....
Damn, thats not good..... broken or cracked ? Hope you heal up quicker than they say
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