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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all

I know the issues with the SV1000 clutch have been covered in great detail here and elsewhere but I'm just in the process of rebuilding mine have a question regarding the case hardened steel plate which sits between the drive gear and the basket and holds the springs in place.

There are 2 of these plates, one each side of the drive gear and one purpose of them would appear to be to hold one end of the springs in place while the other bears on the drive gear. In this case it would seem to be a requriement that these plates remain in a constant position with respect to the basket and allow the drive gear to rotate (slightly) between them however there seems to be very little holding the lower plate.

Am I understanding that correctly?

The upper plate is riveted (now to be bolted) to the upstands on the clutch basket and as the holes in the plate are a good fit on the bolts and the bolts will be exerting a greater force than the rivets (I believe) this is very unlikely to move.
However looking at the lower plate this seems to only be held in place by the pressure exerted by the upper plate through the belleville washers and the drive gear, this is not a great force as it does not prevent the drive gear moving (or it wouldn't do its job) and so won't stop the lower plate moving either. In fact the lower plate is much more likely to move with the drive gear, this may be what it is intended to do but doesn't seem to make much sense as the end of the spring bearing on these plates would then be tilted.
On examination of the assembly there doesn't even seem to be any locaiton of the plate to keep it concentric in the basket.

I did machine up some sleeves to go around the basket upstands and engage in the holes in the plate which effectively pin it into position but then read some Internet chatter about how this is a bad idea as it transmits the force directly into the upstand and could break it.
I must admit I'm dubious about this for a couple of reasons:
1) It is obvious that the gear must already impinge on these posts as there is plenty of evidence of the battering these take, but also
2) The upper plate is already acting on these posts as they are secured to them.

Has anyone come up with any novel solution to keeping the lower plate in place (or any good explanation of why it should move) and it the solution involved using the basket upstands did it give any problems?
 

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The Upper and Lower plate descriptions are a starting point to clarify. Do you mean the centre externally splined hub (4), and the pressure plate (16) the coils springs act on to clamp the clutch plates ?
Or the keeper/retainer inside the basket (1) the holds the 6 radial springs ?


Yellow Font Art Motor vehicle Rectangle
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Good point ML, unfortunately that diagram doesn't help. The basket assembly shown as "1" in the diagram consists of the aluminium basket with the drive gear and the two plates which I'm referring to permanently attached with rivets (well, permanent until you drill the rivets out at least!) and the 6 springs. There is also the separate sleeve as shown in the diagram which is presumably sized to be an exact length for each assembly
.
Probably best if I try and get some pictures this evening to show what I mean, unfortunately wasn't able to do this yesterday.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hopefully the photo's get through OK.
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Locking hubs Rim Bicycle part

This shows the clutch basket, the undercut on the upstands can be clearly seen on the upper one, this is where the gear wheel has been getting forced into them on the extent of its rotation (large power pulse).

The inner/lower case hardened plate with spring pockets sits on top of this:

Automotive tire Rim Alloy wheel Motor vehicle Machine

This plate simply sits on top of the aluminium basket with no positive location, only the pressed form of the spring pocket engaging in the openings in the basket give any sort of location.
Hopefully the photo shows how much off centre this is and, also hopefully you can understand how much this plate can rotate.
The shiney surface at the outer edge of the plate shows where this and the gear wheel have fretted together, indicating movement of the gearwheel (which must/should happen) and/off the plate.

The following photo shows the underside of the plate, which also has shiney areas indicating that this plate had fretted against the aluminium housing.
Watch Automotive tire Alloy wheel Rim Bicycle part


I can not see any way this plate can be prevented from rotating as the only thing holding it in place is the action of 2 belleille washers pushing on the gear wheel which in turn will push this plate against the aluminium basket. Given that the gear wheel must rotate to do its job this plate must do likewise.

This effectively is my query.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The gear wheel sits directly on top of this plate. It offers no location to the plate either for concentricity or for rotation.
Automotive tire Gear Bicycle part Rim Auto part


This in turn has the bellville washers

Automotive tire Crankset Bicycle part Gear Rim


followed by the upper plate

Automotive tire Wheel Motor vehicle Vehicle brake Bicycle part


The upper plate sits on top of the 3 upstands and transfers force into the bellville washers but as mentioned this is limited force and must allow the gear wheel and hence the lower/inner plate to rotate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Although this top plate has much better location the following photo shows the this also must fret in its locaiton in the original, riveted assembly as it can be seen that the rivet head has polished the surface.

Product Automotive tire Bicycle part Gear Rim


I am hoping that once bolted this will hold better location but it would already have been much better than the lower/inner plate.

The other modification I am intending to try is some sleeves which I've placed around the upstands

Wheel Automotive tire Tire Motor vehicle Hubcap


These are a good tight fit on the posts and also on the lower plate

Wheel Tire Automotive tire Locking hubs Alloy wheel


So they locate the plate concentrically on the basket and prevent any rotational motion so should keep the sping pockets aligned with the upper plate and prevent the end of the spring which bears on the plates from being tilted.

As I mentioned in the original post the argument against this is that the rotational force on the plate is now going to be transfered to the posts but this is already the case with the upper plate so I'm not convinced by this.

Time will tell I guess!
 

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I might be wrong, but, that brass bush in the basket is an addition....? WERKS Parts installs a bush to centralse the the basket and remove a lot of chatter, that chatter makes the rest of your issues worse. He also redesigns the spring "saddles" to engage i nthe basket itself better and grip the springs better too.... the post bushes are a must do as well, they hold the spring plate in place
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I might be wrong, but, that brass bush in the basket is an addition....? WERKS Parts installs a bush to centralse the the basket and remove a lot of chatter, that chatter makes the rest of your issues worse. He also redesigns the spring "saddles" to engage i nthe basket itself better and grip the springs better too.... the post bushes are a must do as well, they hold the spring plate in place
That is correct.
The full story behind this is having bought the bike early this year I found that it was suffering from the dreaded clutch judder, I tried to get my existing unit modified by Sharealike but seems he's no longer available and as I didn't want to ship it half way across the planet and back to WERKS due to delay apart from anything else I decided simply to replace with a new clutch from Suzuki.

This is OK but I'm still not 100% happy with the behaviour so I've disassembled the unit by drilling out the rivets and making the following mod's
Inserting brass bush into centre bored to minimal clearance to gear wheel
Dressed the bearing diameter on gear wheel to improve finish and concentricity (was 0.0035" now 0)
Replaced rivets with M10 fine thread high tensile bolts
Applied bushes to upstands to remove movement from inner spring retention plate - The item in question in the thread.
 

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. the post bushes are a must do as well, they hold the spring plate in place
Absolutely do NOT put bushings around the 3 posts of the aluminum basket!!! I have had several baskets at the shop over the years where these bushings have caused one or more of the posts to snap off. Sharealike knew about this too. I know the reasons why this happens. It is not just chance. WERKS Parts does machine work to the components to lock them in place, the method actually reduces stress on the aluminum components in the basket.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi Real Shelby, thanks for the feedback.

I have had several baskets at the shop over the years where these bushings have caused one or more of the posts to snap off. Sharealike knew about this too. I know the reasons why this happens. It is not just chance.
This sounds like what I'm looking for, would you care to enlighten me?
 

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Hi Real Shelby, thanks for the feedback.



This sounds like what I'm looking for, would you care to enlighten me?
I would rather leave that subject alone. Plenty of online information about failures, yet there are still those promoting using bushings around the stop posts ( not just your post). I have seen the end results of more than a few attempts. Typically it is not safe in my opinion.
BUT.... we all start somewhere and learning never ends.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I would rather leave that subject alone. Plenty of online information about failures, yet there are still those promoting using bushings around the stop posts ( not just your post). I have seen the end results of more than a few attempts. Typically it is not safe in my opinion.
BUT.... we all start somewhere and learning never ends.
Fair enough but unfortunatly my head works in a strange way (not strange to me of course, but different to many people's), even from childhood I've never been happy to do or not do something "just because", I always need to know "Why". I've been told that I'm just a born rebel but I don't agree with that because when I'm given understanding I'm more than happy to toe the line. I see it as simply being logical or scientific and having a quest for understanding (rather than plain simple knowledge).

I'll be doing some more thinking about this before I go ahead with it and I may have a change of plan but I'll definitely be doing 'something'!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Actually I've thought a bit further about this and, although I'm not convinced that bushing the plate to the upstands is a complete disaster (the upper plate bolts to the top of them after all) I have devised another solution which I'm going to attempt as it should give the same result with much reduced risk.
 

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Absolutely do NOT put bushings around the 3 posts of the aluminum basket!!! I have had several baskets at the shop over the years where these bushings have caused one or more of the posts to snap off. Sharealike knew about this too. I know the reasons why this happens. It is not just chance. WERKS Parts does machine work to the components to lock them in place, the method actually reduces stress on the aluminum components in the basket.
Apologies mate, i thought that was done, but yeah, i was wrong .....
 

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Apologies mate, i thought that was done, but yeah, i was wrong .....
No Worries! The internet is full of things that get promoted before they are actually tested out to be proven. There were quite a few owners that done the bushings on the post early on. This was before I was in business. Two of those guys that I was working with had failures. I know of a couple more in Europe. Many owners are a bit too proud to post failures....Just wanted to make it clear there is a high failure rate when doing that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
No Worries! The internet is full of things that get promoted before they are actually tested out to be proven. There were quite a few owners that done the bushings on the post early on. This was before I was in business. Two of those guys that I was working with had failures. I know of a couple more in Europe. Many owners are a bit too proud to post failures....Just wanted to make it clear there is a high failure rate when doing that.
That may be so but likewise there may be many who have done the same thing and not had a problem which are not known about, so I'm not conviced it is fair or scientific to make a claim of a high failure rate based a a handfull of possible failures set agains an unknown number of successes. The fact that nothing else is known about the failed units really means that very little can be read into them.
It's the kind of statistical anaysis which can be used to make a claim that telephone ownership causes heart disease.
Also makes me wonder if there have been any post failures where they were not used to prevent motion of the inner spring plate

I think what is evident (apart from the fact that the Suzuki design has flaws in many areas) is that the inner spring plate should not move so it is worth doing 'something' to prevent that. As there "may" be a "possibility" of issues when using the posts I have come up with another cunning plan to address this. In fact I have 2 plans, just trying to work out which one has best chance of success with least possibility of causing additional issues

Anyway, what's the worst that could happen?
 
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