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Regular (Dino) or Synthetic Oil?

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I've had very good luck with Kendall oils in my bikes and in various turbocharged car engines over the years. Kendall has switched, or been bought out in the last few years, but I emailed them and was assured that the oil is the same as it used to be, other than the color. The oil spec sheet they sent me confirms this. Who knows. I broke the SV in on Kendall GT-1 and then switched to Amsoil, which has given good performance over the last several thousand miles. My new found preference for synthetics in the last couple of years is based mostly on its temperature stability. It's really better at cold start up and at high temps than most dino oils, unless I'm sadly misinformed, which would not be that unusual. (w00t)
 

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Kendall is now owned by Conoco Phillips and uses the same proprietary sourced PCMO API SM additive pack that the Motorcraft " another Conoco product " and the Conoco passenger car oils . They are using a blend of group II and group III to achieve the synthetic blend status . Even though these highly refined hydrocracked base oils are superior to the old group I's that Kendall used in it's days , the PAO fluids have aprox six times more the inherent film strength of the mortal , group I & II's .

Esters of various types have film strength beyond that of PAO's .

Oils with an API logo will have a minimum HT/HS applied to them for the viscosity range . The ACEA does it a bit different . For a 30wt thats labeled ACEA A3 , that means long drain capability with an HT/HS of not less than 3.5. ACEA 30wts with A5 ratings mean long drain in a forumulated oil with an HT/HS of less than 3.5 .

Minimum API 30wt HT/HS is 2.9 . High Temp/High Shear is done through or rather with a SAE test sequence .

Just saying , not all oils are alike .

Castrol GTX 10w-40 mineral oil = HT/HS of 3.7

Maxima Extra 10w-40 synthetic " PAO/Ester " HT/HS 4.7

Most if not all the Fleet Diesel mineral API CH4 , CI-4 and CI4+ 15w-40's were 4.2 .

Now we are in the age of a new service category for the diesel oils and it is called CJ-4 . It will be some very good engine oil for certain but I have not seen the additive pack through analysis of a batch of any of it yet to see the anti-wear pack and amounts of it .
 

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I typed up some reading for ya ,

This new API category for diesel engine oils that have hit the market are replacing the previous API CI-4 and CI-4 + service categories and the links I'm posting will fill you in on the why's of the reduced ash , phosforus and sulphur content in these new oils .

The base oils used in the new category should be superior to past formulations and carry a higher NOAK " reduced volatile burn off " because some of the new diesel engines using these oils will be see'ing oil sump temps increased by up to 50F . So much that engine seals and materials used have been redesigned for some engine series .

Since the anti-wear additive phosforus will be reduced to aid in longetivity of the afterburn devices and since zinc " anti-wear additive " is combined with phos there has been some concern as to if these new oils will provide adequate cam lobe , piston scuff and other protection in a high performance gasoline engine . Now to get to the point , I believe most of these oils will be better than ever in both wear protection and keeping the piston ring belt clean and here's why .

The CI-4 Plus oils had the below as typical amounts ;

Phosforus .12-.15 percent by weight
Sulphur .5
Sulphated Ash 1.2-1.6

an oil like the above would have had around 1250-1550 parts per million phosforus and 1350 - 1650 PPM zinc

The new CJ-4 oils will have max allowable ;

Phosforus .12
Sulphur .4
Sulphated Ash 1.0

which would equate to around 1250 PPM Phos and 1300-1350 PPM Zinc .

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/Files/Delvc_PC-10_FAQs.pdf

The older CI-4+ oils used Sulphonate detergents . Some if not most of the higher tier oils used Overbased Sulphonates like calcium and even magnesium . These type detergents have not been proven that I have seen to offer any notable secondary anti-wear protection . Take boron as example . It is a primary detergent with secondary anti-wear function . I had to get to that part to introduce the Salycilate detergents that will be used in some of these CJ-4 oils .

During testing , Salycilates in very low viscosity , low phosforus formulas have actualy outperformed the Sulphonates in anti-wear testing , even with relative large amounts of phosforus used with the Sulphonates .Some of these new oils may be using this Salycilate detergent technology . Some may be using a mix of both .

http://www.pecj.or.jp/japanese/report/e-report/01M445e.pdf

JASO MA motocycle oils have for some time had a phosforus cap of .12 max allowable. That alone tells us something and with the best of these new CJ-4 oils using none of the inferior Group I base oils that require addition of pour point depressants and other non anti-wear additives that fix the cloud point and this and that so these oils will most surely have a small added HT/HS " shear resistance " inherently formulated into them by virtue of blending with lighter , higher group oils which can in turn reduce the amount of viscosity index improvers that are known to shear and thin the oil. Some 15w-40's of the past would become 30wts in as little as 1500 miles because of this shear . Factor in some fuel dillution inherent with bike engines and the oil can become really thin , dangerously so . Even 10w-40 synthetics have this happen to them but there is new terminology being used as the old Viscosity Index Improvers are replaced with Viscosity Modifiers . These VM's can have primary and secondary uses in the engine oil formula as well . More function , less along for the ride sounds good to me .

CJ-4 is marking a new age in 40 weight diesel oils that can be used in gasoline engines and they will be gradually replacing the CI-4 oils over time. It might well be these oils can offer the piston ring belt cleanliness and overall protection in non racing applications of the true synthetic formulas at a current price of only 2.00 per quart . Quantative testing by seeing some lab results will help tell .

And don't worry about the moly . JASO specs and test procedures have long been mis-interpited by the masses. Motul E-Tech 100 , Mobil 10w-40 bike oil , Amsoil 10w-40 and a host of other bike oils have it in the formula . It's used as a secondary anti-oxident . Zinc is an anti-oxident in it'self . Anti-wear additive playing dual roles there .
 

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WRONG................Amsoil has NO appreciable amount of moly additive in its 10w-40 m/c oil.Mobil 1 m/c oil does and I don't know about the others so I can't comment.YOU need to research this BS before you start typing.rant over.............Les
 

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Dynamic Chaos Technician
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Perhaps Hell will be...

AN ETERNAL, ENDLESS, AND INFINITE OIL THREAD.


Sinners will be fitted for their suit of flame,
Set in a cubilce of flame, in a office chair of flame,
in front of a PC of flame...

That only displays one web page dedicated to an oil thread!

You cannot ride a bike, you cannot wrench a bike, you cannot even see a bike.

You can only read, post, and argue about oil.

FOR ALL ETERNITY!



now y'all thinkin' you better be changing your ways?
 
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WRONG................Amsoil has NO appreciable amount of moly additive in its 10w-40 m/c oil.Mobil 1 m/c oil does and I don't know about the others so I can't comment.YOU need to research this BS before you start typing.rant over.............Les

Why don't you buy a bottle of new stock, send it to the lab and see for yourself :supsmiley

Apreciable-smeciable....these formulas either use it or they don't :bigclap:

I don't guess around at this stuff so don't confuse me with the one's who do
 

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Why don't you buy a bottle of new stock, send it to the lab and see for yourself :supsmiley

Apreciable-smeciable....these formulas either use it or they don't :bigclap:

I don't guess around at this stuff so don't confuse me with the one's who do
I didn't say you guessed at anything.I said you were wrong.The Oct.2003 issue of Sport Rider tested quite a number(22) of different oils and Amsoil 10w-40 m/c oil contained NO moly at all.There was an earlier part 1 of the test in Aug.2003 issue.I doesn't matter to me what kind of oil you or anybody uses for that matter but s^%T thats just not true should not be printed as fact.Moly may or maynot cause a clutch to slip and it has been argued both ways.I will say this,if you ever have the chance to ride a Yamaha V-Max try an oil change with Torco and tell us what happens.Ride safe.....Les
 

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I will say this,if you ever have the chance to ride a Yamaha V-Max try an oil change with Torco and tell us what happens.Ride safe.....Les

Why? What happens??:confused: :confused:

I was going to run Rotella in it this spring...:)
 

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You try it and tell us how well your clutch locks up.I mean really bow up on it!Have you ever had a tank slapper?If not,you havent bowed up on it yet.See if you can pull a wheelie when you hit 2nd.gear.Ride safe.....Les ps be sure to use Rotella syn.
 

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You try it and tell us how well your clutch locks up.I mean really bow up on it!Have you ever had a tank slapper?If not,you havent bowed up on it yet.See if you can pull a wheelie when you hit 2nd.gear.Ride safe.....Les ps be sure to use Rotella syn.

I was told by Dale Walker to keep all syn out of the max... No tank slapper yet, but I have done the furber fix to it already... Pulls it up in first right after the tire finishes spinning and then lets it down when shifting to second... I am running a Barnett pressure plate too...:bigclap:

This baby is getting torn down this winter... Who needs stock??:whistle:
 

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I didn't say you guessed at anything.I said you were wrong.The Oct.2003 issue of Sport Rider tested quite a number(22) of different oils and Amsoil 10w-40 m/c oil contained NO moly at all.There was an earlier part 1 of the test in Aug.2003 issue.I doesn't matter to me what kind of oil you or anybody uses for that matter but s^%T thats just not true should not be printed as fact.Moly may or maynot cause a clutch to slip and it has been argued both ways.I will say this,if you ever have the chance to ride a Yamaha V-Max try an oil change with Torco and tell us what happens.Ride safe.....Les

I can see the problem your having with this . You assume too much and your lack of knowledge on the matter combined with your assumptions will forever stand in your way until you open your mind to the following .

That 2003 article was just that . Current for 2003 . This is 2007 and times have changed. I do recall the 2003 article had the Mobil bike oil erroneously listed as containing 5 parts per million of moly . I do believe thats where you got the idea the Mobil used moly before the Amsoil and why you think Amsoil is molyless to this day . I cannot help that they were in error and I could tell you the actual source of the trace amount that was detected ... but I won't . Mobil would have never used a miniscule amount of moly like that and Mobil flat was not using MoS3, or MoS5 at the time but you" assume " the article to be 100% correct . Mobil is using it now though , aprox 60-70 ppm of it .

To counter your ragging of oil soluable moly and clutches ;

The JASO MA rated Motul 300V 15w-50 and it's +400 ppm of moly positively passes the JASO T904-98 compatibility test with a Dynamic friction Index of 2.07 - Static Friction Index of 1.35 and the Stop Time is 1.99 . Don't argue the facts, especially with CLE's and others involved in the oil industry in one way or another that ride and happen onto the internet . I have seen it before and the one's that will put up with it for the short time can use the facts of the matter on you and make you look fool . Myself , I'm trying not to burn the bridge as of yet .

If you had not have come off the way you did in your first post I would have , to be courteous , scanned my own analysis sheet from the lab I use of which shows the newest Amsoil bike oil formula using oil soluable moly in the amount of around 40 parts per million . Now though, I could give a rats ass if you continue this parade or not . Amsoils use of moly and topics concerning , can be obtained through many sources and speaking of , and even though I'm not a member of the following site and it is not my source of informations on past to present oil formulas ,take these links into consideration then figure out how your going to tell these guys your still correct in the matter .

Industry engine oil formulas are always being bench and field tested and will always be changing and will continue to do so without your approval . Believe it or not .

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=474323&an=0&page=3#Post474323

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=715091&an=0&page=1#Post715091

I won't allow myself to be baited any further on this matter . I have provided sufficient evidence that I don't talk out my arse when it comes to engine oils . I have better things to do .
 

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Why? What happens??:confused: :confused:

I was going to run Rotella in it this spring...:)
Nothing will happen and if it does check the stack height of the clutch pack and the spring tension , especially the stack height . Additionaly , some Barnett springs for the Suzuki have lighter installed height pressure than factory stock .As example , 27lbs Barnett vs the 35 lbs of the Hayabusa stock clutch spring . Heat , over time will lessen spring pressure as well . Extremely hard ran bikes should get new clutch springs every so often . Been that way forever and nothing has changed . Did I say the Suzuki clutch stack height is extremely important ? Yeah I did .They can be in spec barely and still slip under hard acceleration .

Nothing lasts forever and gimpy clutches make some excellent engine oils look bad via the internet blame game . In terms of additional friction modifiers added , the Rotella synthetic has a whopping ................. none . It's as basic of a diesel engine oil additive pack as it gets .
 

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Nothing lasts forever and gimpy clutches make some excellent engine oils look bad via the internet blame game .
As much as I hate actually contributing to an oil thread, I find I must agree with this.

I have had clutches begin slipping when going from some basic dino oil to some gosh-fancy-hightech-wonder-oil, but this has ONLY occured on clutches that have had a bazillion races on them and it was nearing time to replace anyway. I have NEVER had a young healthy clutch slip due to what oil was used. But somethimes an "experienced" clutch will continue to work OK on the last 30% of its life on a more simple oil.
 

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My most recent little experiment

After accumulating all the information I have read, I tried mobil 1 synthetic on my last oil change. I thought that the only way you get the benefit (bang for the buck) of using a synthetic is by not changing it as often. So I ran it for 6K miles with absolutely no hitch in using it. Smooth shifting, little to no clutch rattle, knock etc where the last oil, a standard dino oil, the engine had just a hint of knock.

Being one to know the experiment isn't over until you try more than one case study when I recently changed oil I used the next best standard oil I have read about which is Chevron Delo 400 15W / 40.

I also made the mistake of thinking one oil fits all so I bought a 6 gallon case of it from Costco and put it in my 4.3 liter V6 Blazer, and two Trackers, one with a 1.6 and the other with a 2.0 liter engine.

Well, with the weather only a little colder the three cars start noticeably harder (spin slower on the starter), and for the first time ever, the clutch on the SV1K chattered hard when pulling out of the driveway yesterday. I had to pull in the clutch and rev and let out more slowly as I went down the street. The bike engine temp was just eclipsing 90 F when I was pulling out of the driveway so the clutch was still cold soaked. And, I didn’t have a chatter problem after that.

One measure I have always used on motorcycle engine oil is if I notice a step change in clutch chatter, slippage or ease of shifting. If the shifting gets harsh after the change or shifting does not remain smooth through the 2K mile range, I will abandon that oil. In this case the clutch chattered right after the oil change where it never has before. I have only noticed this once before in my life when I used Quaker State oil and the bike was immediately harder, (more notchy) when shifting. I changed back to a standard brand which at the time was Valvoline or Castrol.

So, for me, I am going back to standard oil in the cars and back to mobil 1 for the bike. We also acquired a newer 2005 Toyota corolla and I will stick with the recommended fuel efficient blend of 5W 30 when it comes time to change the oil in that car since that is all about fuel efficiency.

My experiment with the bike won’t be conclusive unless I repeat the clutch chatter incident then change the oil in the bike and the clutch chatter goes away. But based on the clutch and the slow turnover in the three cars, my gut tells me unless you have a diesel engine, don’t put diesel engine oil in it.
 

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Team Smoke

As much as I hate actually contributing to an oil thread, I find I must agree with this.

I have had clutches begin slipping when going from some basic dino oil to some gosh-fancy-hightech-wonder-oil, but this has ONLY occured on clutches that have had a bazillion races on them and it was nearing time to replace anyway. I have NEVER had a young healthy clutch slip due to what oil was used. But somethimes an "experienced" clutch will continue to work OK on the last 30% of its life on a more simple oil.

Seems like I remember a oil rant by "The Big Cat"
Chainsaw's oil rant is a classic story of how oil doesn't kill bikes neglect does. I can't find a link to it.

Mountian Motor man has eatin his wheaties.
Must be a oil engineer.......(Oh and I'll sure take any leftover test oil you have...... and I have a oil sample I'd like to get analized) Thanks for all the cases of oil products.


Me I use Castrol Actevo 4T 10-40......But would use any good brand of 4T if I could get it any cheaper than Castrol
Thanks Cycle 1 of OKC



mike
SV's like fresh blood it
keeps the shifting crisp.

In the old Maico days Castrol GP 50wt @ 20-1(Never a Failure)
Golden Spectro, Belray or what ever I could find
cheap for the tranny. (changed every race)
 

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